04.07.2011 - Transcendent Imperative

Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello Dao
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha, Bruce and Dao :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello again Alfred and Wol :)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :)
Wol (wol.euler): /me waves
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Gaya and Alfred and Wol
boxy (alfred.kelberry): btw, thank you for the link to the talk, gaya
boxy (alfred.kelberry): it was very interesting
Gaya Ethaniel: Which talk?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): how westerners misunderstand buddhism :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): How Westerners misunderstand most things :(
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... well ... I don't really subscribe to some of the opinions expressed in the video probably but still glad you enjoyed it :)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'm still pondering over it. but surprisingly (or not), my view of buddhism or better my experiential perception is very much in line with the early text
Gaya Ethaniel: You mean Pali suttas?
boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hi Cal
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Cal!
Calvino Rabeni: Hi greetings!
Wol (wol.euler): hello cal
Gaya Ethaniel: Interesting ... I don't know enough to discuss it with you but perhaps you can tell us about it one day :)
Gaya Ethaniel: So let's give a minute or two then start people :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello JS :)
JS Saltwater: Hi Gaya, all
boxy (alfred.kelberry): i really like a quote from the talk saying that the more back to the early text the farther away from religion :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hello JS
JS Saltwater: hi Ag
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... not so sure about that ... anyway :)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): in this sense it's rather natural for me that i tend to the early text
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes they are profound teachings I'm sure :)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
Gaya Ethaniel: So this week ... the urge we all have in us ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Let me get the link for you again ...
Gaya Ethaniel: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Religion or experience -- take your pick.
Gaya Ethaniel: http://www.tricycle.com/feature/tran...ent-imperative - the article
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Have you had a chance to read it?
Gaya Ethaniel: Want to have a quick read now?
Wol (wol.euler): doing that now
boxy (alfred.kelberry): *hides*
Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me says it's fine to hide behind me, Al.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
JS Saltwater: read most of it but need to refresh
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure :)
boxy (alfred.kelberry): somebody ate my homework
Gaya Ethaniel: JS - you find report links on WoK wiki homepage too.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Blub ate it, Al.
boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Ha!
JS Saltwater: kk thx Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
JS Saltwater: ah yes, Flow, a metaphor that crops up many places
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Know the flow as you go
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I feel that I 'understand' the need for some folks to have a 'religion' -- What concerns me is that I not condescend to them because of that need.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I also have needs.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): I feel that there is a difference between "Flow" and "religion."
JS Saltwater: agreed
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
JS Saltwater: I also like the point made about how transcendental experience is itself amoral
JS Saltwater: the notion that there could be immoral spiritualities is intriguing and made me wonder what spirituality really is
Gaya Ethaniel: Can you say a bit about immoral spirituality? I'm not quite getting it ^^;;;
JS Saltwater: well he talks about the flow experience having to have a moral dimension
JS Saltwater: which implies it can exist apart from that
Wol (wol.euler): /me frowns
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
JS Saltwater: and if flow is one manner of experiencing the transcendent, which I will partially define as the spiritual, then I conclude from that there may be people who are spiritually alert but immoral
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Hiya zen
Zen (zen.arado): Hi All :)
Wol (wol.euler): I read it in that way, Csikszentmihalyi says that transcendental experience (flow) is morally neutral
JS Saltwater: which is interesting because we usually valorize spirituality unconditionally
Wol (wol.euler): hello zen
JS Saltwater: end of sentence :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I do think that contemplation brings ethical concerns to our attention. Whether flow does that ... not sure.
JS Saltwater: hiya zen
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The question (for me) is where the energy goes when it is released by spirituality.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It could go anywhere.
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... what energy? Maybe I need to read the article again >.<
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Practice releases energy -- we can Flow with that -- or we can fall back on our habitual patterns.
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Aloha Pila
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The energy does not care what we do.
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Gaya Ethaniel: You mean the charge that gravitate stuff to us Bruce?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Pila!
Pila Mulligan: ;0
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hmmmm. . . Does not know what "charge" means.
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Pila :)
JS Saltwater: Sorry to ramble and run - but need to attend to something - hope to bbl
Dao Yheng: thanks for dropping by!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Bye, JS!
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure bye JS :)
Calvino Rabeni: I see, not so much that the energy is discharged, as, it is freed up and made available for intentional use outside where it was stuck?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Agrees with Cal -- but it will "gravitate" wherever we have unresolved issues....
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm clumsily attempting to describe something here ... will have to think a bit.
Dao Yheng: To me, the issue of flow is very much bound up with our aliveness, something more natural and instinctive than the conceptual approach, but it's not the only alternative approach
Zen (zen.arado): "curious moments of inner freedom entail a “merging of action and awareness
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it's delicious :)
Calvino Rabeni: In nature, wherever there is flow, there is also a channel that contains it. Every river has its bank / or IS it's bank.
Wol (wol.euler): /me nods.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yummy aliveness :)
Calvino Rabeni: Religion is more channel than flow
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): really?
Gaya Ethaniel: aw ... poor old religion ...
Dao Yheng: it feels more fulfilling than what we're used to, but my own feeling is that the range of what humans can experience is even more vast than flow
Calvino Rabeni: well according to one formulation religion is structured and intitutionalized spirituality
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): So, the framework for "religion" is more important than the moment-by-moment flowing.
Calvino Rabeni: yet if the energy does not flow in the structured channels, it is a dead religion and won't persist
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me agrees with Dao. . . on the vastness of our potential.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... indeed.
Zen (zen.arado): I'm working with the idea of "Just as we need a strong sense of self to function well, so do we need freedom from the self to function freely."
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): wonderful. Zen.
Zen (zen.arado): allowing the self to do what it does in functioning terma but being able to step back from it when necessary
Gaya Ethaniel: /me ponders.
Zen (zen.arado): instead of trying ti get rid of the self
Pila Mulligan: /me notices the atman question again :)
Zen (zen.arado): can humans do without religions then?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders the excellent of Mind Training in Seven Points . . with regard to Zen's notion of "self."
Gaya Ethaniel: That sense of self sounds like natural confidence to me.
Calvino Rabeni: Transcendence is relative ... the self is not a fixed object that gets transcended, but a dynamic system that grows.. so usually going "beyond" the self/ego might be better seen as growth and evolution of the self/ego to encompass reality more broadly
Gaya Ethaniel: What do you think about 'stepping back' bit Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): seem to be a lot of threads in this article
Gaya Ethaniel: yeah :P
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Zen (zen.arado): it's what we do in meditation isn't it?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): We're up to it.
Zen (zen.arado): or coming back to being
Zen (zen.arado): a la pab
Gaya Ethaniel: Like the quote you mentioned once - passively watching?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
Dao Yheng: Hi mits :)
Zen (zen.arado): don't know about 'passive' though
Mitsu Ishii: sorry had problems upgrading my viewer
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Mitsu
Pila Mulligan: hi Mitsu
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Mitsu!
Gaya Ethaniel: From Zen - Let go of the idea of yourself as a “doer” of anything, and instead passively witness everything happening.”
Zen (zen.arado): we seem to need something that gives meaning to life
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... skimming the surface gets boring and tiring.
Zen (zen.arado): caught by my own quote :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :P
Wol (wol.euler): :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): !
Gaya Ethaniel: Witnessing ... that came up before here.
Zen (zen.arado): that was more about being able to step back from 'doing' all the time I think
Zen (zen.arado): and knowing too of course
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen (zen.arado): that's about resting in the flow too i think
Calvino Rabeni: doing implies a separation from flow
Gaya Ethaniel: /me nods.
Wol (wol.euler): wu wei :)
Calvino Rabeni: flow experience is dynamic being
Wol (wol.euler): do without doing
Pila Mulligan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Can you say a bit about wu wei Pila?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Do nothing and everything gets done.
Gaya Ethaniel: I am not really familiar with this.
Pila Mulligan: well, the first thing that comes to mind ni thie context, Gaya ...
Mitsu Ishii: I was just talking about this with a friend.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Pila Mulligan: is how wu wei flow relates to transcendence
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me listens intently to Pila.
Pila Mulligan: it seems consistent with the discussion
Pila Mulligan: wu wei is going with the flow in a transcendent sense
Pila Mulligan: and in Buddhist terms maybe it is best illustrated by staying empty
Pila Mulligan: not being caught up in stuff
Calvino Rabeni: and an immanent sense, you can't have one without the other
Pila Mulligan: it is impossible :)
Zen (zen.arado): it's a bit foreign to our natures isn't it?
Pila Mulligan: some days you just get caught up in stuff
Zen (zen.arado): we are such 'doers'
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: I find the word "transcendence" problematic, however.
Pila Mulligan: but it is there if you remember
Calvino Rabeni: it is a problematic idea
Pila Mulligan: yes, Mitsu, I was relating to the earlier discussion
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it implies a sort of separate state.
Pila Mulligan: removal works too
Pila Mulligan: removal from stuffness
Calvino Rabeni: as impermanence implies always passing and always arising, a continual flow
Pila Mulligan: but I always liked the play on words: trance end
Calvino Rabeni: but not an absence
Gaya Ethaniel: Removal teams for hire? :P
Zen (zen.arado): yes :)
Gaya Ethaniel: oh trance end heheh
Pila Mulligan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: /me continues to giggle on trance end.
Pila Mulligan: whatever frees you
Pila Mulligan: hi Aph
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Trance-end and "flow-we-are" (flower).
Gaya Ethaniel: :D
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aphrodite :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Aph.
Wol (wol.euler): hello again aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi sorry to come in late
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: been taking care o business
Aphrodite Macbain: what is being discussed, may I ask?
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Aphrodite - let me give you a notecard and IM ...
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Gaya
Pila Mulligan: http://www.tricycle.com/feature/tran...ent-imperative?
Pila Mulligan: I think :)
Pila Mulligan: maybe I'm a week late
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The term "imperative" is one I've come to honor...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): It speaks to the fragility of our predicament.
Gaya Ethaniel: /me listens.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Sometimes, some things just seem "imperative" - - and I awaken to new parts of myself through those windows.
Zen (zen.arado): he thinks religion is an imperative for mankind but he also cites evolution or an understanding of it
Zen (zen.arado): “Understanding how evolution works, and what role we may play in it, provides a direction and purpose that otherwise is lacking in this secular, desacralized world.”
Zen (zen.arado): I thought evolution was a scientific theory?
Pila Mulligan: that reminds me of how karma is described by Krishna to Arjuna n the Bagavad Gita, Bruce -- you just gotta do it
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): :)
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Aphrodite Macbain: karma is achieved through action?
Pila Mulligan: oh what a broad term Aph :)
Pila Mulligan: both :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me conceptualizes "Karma" as momentum.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, 'Just Do It' ... I like this even though it's from Nike :P
 Wol (wol.euler): /me nods.
Pila Mulligan: yep
Calvino Rabeni: I've heard a lot recently from "evolution of spirituality" movements who use the world "evolution" redefined to encompass their spiritual values
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "Just do it" and be awake to the results of your actions.
Pila Mulligan: and are science and spirit necessarily mutually exclusive?
Calvino Rabeni: in a way riding on the coattails of science for legitimacy
Zen (zen.arado): mutually harmonious if used well?
[Gaya Ethaniel: /me nods ... indeed ... the results.
Calvino Rabeni: or redefining "quantum" to be about parapsychology, esp, or whatever
Calvino Rabeni: Personally I'd like to see religion get its own feet again
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you mean by that Cal?
Zen (zen.arado): depends what you mean by religion I guess
Calvino Rabeni: I mean not reframing it in terms of pseudo science, or acting as if it is the same theory
Pila Mulligan: independence?
Calvino Rabeni: The usual manoeuvre is to use science to legitimize spiritual ideas
Calvino Rabeni: e.g. by claiming that "evolution" is an "innate desire to transcend"
Aphrodite Macbain: if religion= system of belief, thean each system of believe depends on its own concepts and history, some scientific, some mystical
Aphrodite Macbain: each religion has its own means of justification
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): context context context.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, and context
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Here we are. Here I am.
Zen (zen.arado): sorry for using so msany quotes but he says "As a mode of understanding the world, science places primary value on explanatory knowledge. This is quite inimical to a mythic stance, which holds that the world is disclosed most meaningfully in its mystery."
Aphrodite Macbain: Why is it interesting to talk about religion now? Because threrfe are new ones? Because there are fewer?
Zen (zen.arado): but not sure how far I would go with the myths
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen (zen.arado): how about if you are an atheist?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "Myths" are another way of Knowing.
Zen (zen.arado): I don't need a monotheistic belief system
Calvino Rabeni: I read a book recently on "new and emergent religions" ... it didn't define religion however, and there were some questionable entries from my point of view
Aphrodite Macbain: an atheist believes there is no god, but I may not imply that they dont have a system of morality and belief
Zen (zen.arado): well ok but not myths as superstition
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... we seem to be always in search of something ...
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm funny it didn't define religion...
Zen (zen.arado): C brings in Virtue Ethics as a framework for morality
Calvino Rabeni: well that's sort of difficult
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): "myth" as deep penetration of Way of Knowing.
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Pila Mulligan: /me ponders Joseph Campbell
Calvino Rabeni: myth is a narrative for understanding-without-defining in a holistic way
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me ponders the power of narrative.
Aphrodite Macbain: myth is a narrative that attempts to explain or illustrate a particular world view. It has been constructed by humans, not gods
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): religion = narrative?
Zen (zen.arado): /me realizes he is more science oriented than he thought
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen (zen.arado): there is a balance somewhere
Gaya Ethaniel: We've got a few minutes left ... shall we continue this topic next week. Any suggestions please?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Maybe next week we will "balance."
Calvino Rabeni: Personal Narratives?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Topic for next week?
Zen (zen.arado): I need to read article again
Pila Mulligan: have you done dharma?
Gaya Ethaniel: The flow article?
Calvino Rabeni: If "balance" then maybe it could be balanced with "commitment" ?
Pila Mulligan: as a topic
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me suggests (timidly) the function of "narrative" in my life.
Zen (zen.arado): yeh sure
Gaya Ethaniel: wow ... so many great suggestions ...
Calvino Rabeni: /me nods at several yes
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Wheeeeeee!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): OK -- It's up to you, Gaya -- Just let us know, OK/
Gaya Ethaniel: Nooooo it's up to you all :)
Zen (zen.arado): will examine my story :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ha ha ha!
Gaya Ethaniel: I will email the group ... please let's decide together.
Zen (zen.arado): such a good one :)
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): cool.
Gaya Ethaniel: And also I want to ask you about the homework meeting.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): yes?
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm having difficulties with attending weekly.
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): me too.
Zen (zen.arado): as we all are
Gaya Ethaniel: Also miss Bruce ... guess voice is not a good option for all.
Gaya Ethaniel: So what to do ...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me has no voice at all.
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Laryngitis?
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ;-)
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Say 'aaaah'
Gaya Ethaniel: So let's say we do in text ...
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): aaaaaaahhhhhhh!
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): /me rubs her ears
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): cool with moi.
Gaya Ethaniel: Shall we work something out less frequent than weekly?
Gaya Ethaniel: I will put that on the agenda in the email.
Mitsu Ishii: bye everyone
Zen (zen.arado): ok
Dao Yheng: sounds good -- thanks gaya, thanks everyone!
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): weekly is cool with moi..... But can't do voice.
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Sayonara mitsu
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye thanks all :)
Pila Mulligan: bye
Bruce (bruce.mowbray): THANKS to all beings.
Zen (zen.arado): thanks to all
Zen (zen.arado): bye
Wol (wol.euler): bye everyone
Aggers (agatha.macbeth): Night Zen