03.03.2011 - Soul

Our topic:

Pila Mulligan: have you done 'soul' as a topic?
Calvino Rabeni: Soul sounds interesting
Calvino Rabeni: and some other things from western theology
Zen Arado: soul and resurrection
Zen Arado: transmigration
Pila Mulligan: it may lead to an analogy with atman and that in turn leads to some very interesting Buddhist ideas
......
Zen Arado: frame a question
Pila Mulligan: would the existence of a soul necessarily imply dualism?
Zen Arado: does the concept of soul have any relevance for us?
......
A bit of reading:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya and Mick
Mickorod Renard: hi
Agatha Macbeth: Gayababe :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Gaya and Mick :)
Ataraxia Azemus: And Dao :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Dao
Agatha Macbeth: And micko too
No room to sit here, try another spot.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Dao
Mickorod Renard: yea,
Dao Yheng: Hiya
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Bruce :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Cal
Agatha Macbeth: Boxy!
Pila Mulligan: and Bruce
Alfred Kelberry: meep!
Pila Mulligan: and Alf
Agatha Macbeth: Meep Meep   ;P :p:P :p :P
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Cal :)
Alfred Kelberry: aggers :)
Agatha Macbeth: Brucie!
Alfred Kelberry: hi wokers
Agatha Macbeth: Calvinie!
Alfred Kelberry: gaya the bunny is here :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Alfred, Bruce and Cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyoneies :)
Agatha Macbeth: (Hm, doesn't work)
Mickorod Renard: hi everyone just turned up
Alfred Kelberry: pila-san :)
Pila Mulligan: Alfy-san
Pila Mulligan: :)
Alfred Kelberry: just boxy :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Alfred :)
Alfred Kelberry: um, is there someone giving a talk?
Alfred Kelberry: i think dao is in charge :)
Pila Mulligan: it is not voice, it is just abuit to start
Agatha Macbeth: Yes ma'am
Alfred Kelberry: ok
Agatha Macbeth: Not you
Dao Yheng: ha ha, I was going to ask if you wanted to give us a lecture
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Dao Yheng: you're looking very collegial today :)
Mickorod Renard: brb
Alfred Kelberry: um... me?
Agatha Macbeth: Yea, thee
Pila Mulligan: I have a prepared paragraph to paste into text ... :)
Pila Mulligan: on soul
Alfred Kelberry: must be my scarf
Ataraxia Azemus: Me too :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Dao Yheng: please do, Pila
Pila Mulligan: A wikipedia article refers to soul as "the incorporeal essence of a person or living thing or object." Separation of an incorporeal soul from the physical body is the premise that gives rise to philosophical dualism, as in Descartes identifying mind with conscious awareness as distinct from the physical brain. This depends on a definition of physical and non-physical that may have been wrongly taken if, as is supposed in some literature and even science, there is a physical aspect of the soul and consciousness that is itself not yet measurable. In other words, the dualism dichotomy may prove to be untenable in a manner that exceeds the scope of perception of contemporary science.
Pila Mulligan: -- finis --
Alfred Kelberry: i like the addition "or object" meaning a cup can have a soul :)
Dao Yheng: hmm, yes -- we sort of tip toed around the issue of "Separation of an incorporeal soul from the physical body " -- but maybe that wasn't always a distinction that needed to be made with soul
Calvino Rabeni: For comparison, here's a quote from the same article about a different greek's conception
Calvino Rabeni: "Unlike Plato and the medieval religious tradition, Aristotle did not consider the soul to be a separate, immortal occupant of the body, just as the act of cutting does not occur without a knife or axe, the soul ceases to exist at the death of the body. In his view, the soul is the actuality of a living body."
Dao Yheng: yes, alfred -- I like that too!
Dao Yheng: soul seems to be word that refers to something essential, and yet whether it's the aliveness part, or non-material part or something else always seems to come up
Ataraxia Azemus: On that note, I liked your distinction between a soul as something to have and a soul as something to be, Cal...there's kind of a similar thing going on there; the soul as an immortal object and the soul as the defining being of a thing
Gaya Ethaniel: What kind of 'living' it means I wonder ...
Alfred Kelberry: i'm with aristotle on that
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Avy :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Avy
Mickorod Renard: either way though, could it be egg chicken chicken egg?
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Avy, how's Legoland?
Calvino Rabeni: In addition to Have and Be, I might consider Do . it might tempt soul to be more active in the world to consider it that way
Calvino Rabeni: Similar to ideas about whether love is a noun or a verb
Ataraxia Azemus: A soul Has to Be able to Do? :)
Agatha Macbeth: Both
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Avy :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Avy
Alfred Kelberry: soul is like an idea, it's abstract and hard to conceive visually, unless you implement it, and we human beings are a result of that :)
Avy Runner: hi everyone :)
Alfred Kelberry: avy :)
Mickorod Renard: the thing is, can we determine which it is, i doubt it tonite, so are we discussing something exterior to that?
Alfred Kelberry: something in our brain
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :) I will make you a notecard of what's been said so far.
Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Zen :)
Alfred Kelberry: zen :)
Agatha Macbeth: Top o' the evenin' Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all:)
Dao Yheng: Zen arrives to give Avy a boost :)
Mickorod Renard: I was tinking,,whichever it is,,is the soul the most important bit to consider when it comes to concience etc?
Pila Mulligan: hi Zen
Alfred Kelberry: is soul synonymous to identity?
Avy Runner: boost?
Dao Yheng: (to your seat)
Pila Mulligan: maybe boxy, as in essence
Avy Runner: (I missed something ;))
Mickorod Renard: is the soul a passenger to our bodily choices?
Dao Yheng: (maybe my viewer is slow :)
Calvino Rabeni: If people say something like "soul is synonymous with identity" it means something about identity
Alfred Kelberry: pila, i think it subtly implies that soul is no different than a thought
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Pila Mulligan: and a thought is ...?
Pila Mulligan: Prof. Descartes :)
Alfred Kelberry: interaction of ideas :)
Avy Runner: (I look from behind the bushes ;))
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Mickorod Renard: I sometimes get the feeling the soul is the pet canary in the mind that will ultimately pay the price for our mischivous bodily choices and have to suffer at some later date by means of concience..or is that the ramblings of a mad man?
Pila Mulligan: sounds theological
Dao Yheng: Ha, I started to feel a bit loony myself when considering the soul...
Zen Arado: why do we need the concept of a soul?
Calvino Rabeni: To paraphrase Zen's question - How does the concept of a soul have any relevance to us?
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Calvino Rabeni: Personally
Mickorod Renard: maybe soul is concience?
Avy Runner: (bumped again :))
Pila Mulligan: human thoughts just seem to have wandered into the idea, Zen and Cal
Agatha Macbeth: WB Atari
Zen Arado: paraphrsed my own question:)
Pila Mulligan: welcome bcak Atari
Ataraxia Azemus: Thanks :)
Zen Arado: doesn't it come from religions?
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Dao Yheng: but it does feel like there is a something that pays a price, Mick
Pila Mulligan: and the thought seems to have taken hold, like a plant, in collective history
Alfred Kelberry: zen, religion only used it as a tool
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: what if we had never heard of the notion of a soul,,what would we discuss tonite?
Calvino Rabeni: It might be useful to at least point out the way the concept has a lot of social and emotional baggage .. embarassment, propaganda, ideology ...
Zen Arado: if we didn't have e religious upbringing would we still have the idea?
Calvino Rabeni: I think so Zen
Ataraxia Azemus: I think so, too
Alfred Kelberry: pila, that sounded like a line from "inception" :)
Calvino Rabeni: everyone has a religious upbringing by being part of a culture
Pila Mulligan: religion is a very thick cloud in both philosophical history and personal thinking
Calvino Rabeni: regardless whether they were lectured on theology
Dao Yheng: it's a weird question in a way -- all humans have had a religious background, we're the closest we've ever come to not having one
Mickorod Renard: the notion of a soul must be for a reson,,to explain something
Calvino Rabeni: Unless you define consumer culture as a religion .. it's certainly a value and ethical system
Zen Arado: it allows immortality
Calvino Rabeni: I agree with Mick on that
Ataraxia Azemus: If we mean soul as a thing that continues after death, then it seems like a natural concept, because without it, death means a cessation of experience, and we find that disturbing
Pila Mulligan: it is the transcendent part that gives people pause today
Bruce Mowbray: Is "soul" something separate and individual - as would be suggested by the notion of punishments, etc. - or is soul something we share with all living things, or perhaps all of Being?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Calvino Rabeni: People accept a concept because of the MANY THINGS it sort of says something about
Zen Arado: ie do dogs have souls?
Ataraxia Azemus: I prefer the latter to the former, Bruce :)
Pila Mulligan: ahh, Bruce, the Atman question :)
Bruce Mowbray: me too, Violet.
Mickorod Renard: the transcendant as in to have something accountable for our actions in this lifetime Pila?
Dao Yheng: can we have it both ways?
Ataraxia Azemus: I prefer that to either, Dao :)
Bruce Mowbray: soul - connective stuff
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, we can have it both ways, says /me :)
Alfred Kelberry: bruce, for those who believe in afterlife, soul is very real and separate, for others it's just a concept in our head
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80t...%28Buddhism%29
Calvino Rabeni: Not necessarily Alfred, a soul need not imply an afterlife
Zen Arado: we couldn't go to heaven or be reborn without a soul
Bruce Mowbray: what is "after-life" -- when Life continues and we are soul-connected to all of it?
Calvino Rabeni: it might imply a "meta-life" though
Pila Mulligan: accountable for our actions in this lifetime, Mick -- I'd guess not
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... still listening here but soul seems to bring a lot of other related ideas into consideration when discussing ...
Mickorod Renard: does anyone here not believe in some sort of life after death?
Calvino Rabeni: I don't
Pila Mulligan: I do
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: depends what you mean by life Mick
Alfred Kelberry: cal, meta-life?
Ataraxia Azemus: I don't, either
Mickorod Renard: in that case Cal, do you believe in a soul?
Pila Mulligan: yes, life is the tricky part there
Ataraxia Azemus: But...I find beauty and value in different conceptions of a life after death
Alfred Kelberry: mick, i think secretly everyone wishes it is true :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a greater more universal significance for the living self in the here-and-now ..
Calvino Rabeni: that would be a meta-life
Bruce Mowbray: I believe that Life will continue after my individual body dies. . . and that in some ways I will continue to contribute to that Life. - - - perhaps as fertilizer . . .
Calvino Rabeni: connected with something beyond individual
Calvino Rabeni: but impermanent
Pila Mulligan: I prefer the idea of some sort of *life* (identity, essence) before birth
Zen Arado: we go back to what we came out of
Alfred Kelberry: cal, which would also be a concept
Calvino Rabeni: huh Al?
Alfred Kelberry: yet highly regarded by the author
Bruce Mowbray feels that we never really "came out of it"
Zen Arado: it's the individuality of a soul we like isn't it?
Mickorod Renard: mmm. I was trying to get to what the soul may be value for
Zen Arado: our ego wants to keep going some way
Alfred Kelberry: cal, you don't say this meta-life is separate?
Calvino Rabeni: @zen, i think what we like about the idea of soul is it is a connector between individual and something greater
Ataraxia Azemus: I think that's part of it, Zen, but maybe on a deeper level, it's the continuity of experience...
Calvino Rabeni: its an in-between
Zen Arado: I want to exist as 'I'
Calvino Rabeni: @Al I would say separate, no
Mickorod Renard: I am lost
Pila Mulligan: Dalai Lama (quoted in wiki): when we look at [the] interdependence of mental and physical constituents from the perspective of Highest Yoga Tantra, there are two concepts of a person. One is the temporary person or self, that is as we exist at the moment, and this is labeled on the basis of our coarse or gross physical body and conditioned mind, and, at the same time, there is a subtle person or self which is designated in dependence on the subtle body and subtle mind. This subtle body and subtle mind are seen as a single entity that has two facets.
Ataraxia Azemus: "I" is always changing, isn't it?
Alfred Kelberry: cal, between what?
Agatha Macbeth: Fluid I
Calvino Rabeni: It seems a part of most spiritual systems to offer something to the desire people have to be "more than an I"
Zen Arado: ah but the soul is supposed to be the unchanging part isn't it?
Calvino Rabeni: soul provides some of that
Ataraxia Azemus: Or an I-deal, at least
Pila Mulligan: :)
Agatha Macbeth groans
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Ataraxia Azemus grins
Zen Arado: :)
Mickorod Renard: my soul hurts
Calvino Rabeni: if all is impermanent, would that include soul?
Zen Arado: impermanence seems to rule it out
Zen Arado: since it doesn't change
Zen Arado: ?
Gaya Ethaniel: brb
Pila Mulligan: but it can change :)
Dao Yheng: If a soul doesn't exist in time, then what does impermanence mean?
Avy Runner: it would include it for me yes
Mickorod Renard: could it not be that other part of ourselves that is in operation to challenge our decisions and act as a concience?
Zen Arado: my idea of a soul is something that is an essence of us
Calvino Rabeni: Seems to me, Mick
Alfred Kelberry: mick, that would be you :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Pila Mulligan: like Freudian superego, Mick and cal>
Pila Mulligan: Cal*
Zen Arado: but mind isn't soul is it?
Alfred Kelberry: soul is a work of mind
Calvino Rabeni: It's an axiom of theology that soul or god does not change ...that doesn't make it true
Mickorod Renard: it could be if its placed in us before our coruption
Zen Arado: but when is it placed?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Ataraxia Azemus: I see a soul as essence, too...but closer to Bruce's POV. An essence of Life, more than the life.
Pila Mulligan: nature changes
Zen Arado: well we are talking about a concept here aren't we
Zen Arado: we cant see a soull
Alfred Kelberry: right, zen
Calvino Rabeni: Zen, can we talk about the moon?
Calvino Rabeni: not about a concept of the moon?
Pila Mulligan: or intuition
Zen Arado: didn't the try to weigh bodies to see if they lightened after death?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Alfred Kelberry: cal, what's your point?
Zen Arado: after the soul left?
Pila Mulligan: yes Zen
Calvino Rabeni: We use concepts .. with some faith that they may refer to something .. which itself is rather unclear
Mickorod Renard: there must be something in our genetic structure that is fundamental, after that we add information via our brains
Ataraxia Azemus: When we talk about souls, we talk about a lot of different things....some of them are still valuable or beautiful, even if we don't accept them literally
Zen Arado: yeh but you kinda have to have faith to believe it exists at all
Dao Yheng: you also have to have faith to believe that it doesn't exist, right?
Agatha Macbeth nods
Alfred Kelberry: maybe some developmental psychologists know when a concept of soul is grasped by the kids the first time
Pila Mulligan: must go now, rl stuff -- aloha
Ataraxia Azemus: The continuity of all life is one of the most beautiful human concepts I know....I don't believe in it, but it's nice poetry. It speaks to the soul :)
Alfred Kelberry: but i'm pretty sure it's not built-in :)
Agatha Macbeth: Aloha Pila, take care
Dao Yheng: bye pila :)
Zen Arado: bye Pila
Mickorod Renard: noetic science wieghded the soul,,and purported that it had a wieght
Ataraxia Azemus: Take care Pila :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Pila
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Pila.
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe zen .. or maybe not .. suppose someone uses a concept e.g. soul to refer to something in you, that you call by a different name ... so you believe in "it" but don't subscribe to the concept
Dao Yheng: Ata, that's a nice distinction -- that some things don't exactly need to be true or false
Gaya Ethaniel: oh missed Pila :(#
Ataraxia Azemus: wb Gaya :)
Agatha Macbeth: He only just left
Zen Arado: maybe there is a sliding scale of realness from a concept to something that is more tangible
Alfred Kelberry: violet, well said on the afterlife :)
Ataraxia Azemus: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Alfred Kelberry: gaya the bunny :)
Calvino Rabeni: The question of interpretation .. the "hermeneutic stance" .. is whether the concept used by something else refers to anything in one's own experience or beliefs under a different name
Zen Arado: experience yes - we don't exprience a soul
Bruce Mowbray: re - the hermeneutic stance -- perhaps "soul" is a metaphor for something. . . . that we cannot know literaly.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Mickorod Renard: unless the experiencing aspect of our existance is experienced by our soul,,and only that?
Calvino Rabeni: maybe it has components that are knowable and others that are unknowable
Avy Runner: (sorry, get's distracted a lot)
Zen Arado: it certainly is pervasive
Ataraxia Azemus: Maybe our experience is our soul? Does an impermanent soul still count?
Agatha Macbeth: me too Avy
Mickorod Renard: without a concience do we experience?
Alfred Kelberry: our experience shapes our soul
Calvino Rabeni: Occasionally the soul is considered to be an observer, .. the ghost in the machine ...
Bruce Mowbray: Throughout this whole discussion, it seems that we have not mentioned "Spirit" --- The archetypal psychologists (e.g. James Hillman) make a clear distinction between spirit and soul.
Mickorod Renard: thisa is what I was thinking Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Zen Arado feels souless
Alfred Kelberry: thisa?
Mickorod Renard: :)
Mickorod Renard: Bruce,say more?
Ataraxia Azemus: Mm, I'm curious, too
Calvino Rabeni: That's a great distinction Bruce
Zen Arado: what is it Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: spirit ascends and descends... whereas soul is an inward and downward sensing...
Zen Arado: the Holy Spirit?
Calvino Rabeni: There's that directional component, but what is that a metaphor ... for ?
Mickorod Renard: mm i was wondering too
Zen Arado: ascending to heaven?
Alfred Kelberry: :/
Calvino Rabeni: In other words it shows different qualities
Avy Runner: sounds like the difference between holy and grounding.....
Calvino Rabeni: something like that
Zen Arado: or descending to hell
Mickorod Renard: mood i should think
Avy Runner: teh uprising part and the descending part
Avy Runner: ?
Calvino Rabeni: mood is grounded in our gravity field
Bruce Mowbray: Soul music -- soul food -- bodily sensations are soul. . . whereas flights of aspiration are spirit.
Ataraxia Azemus: Oh, I see now,
Ataraxia Azemus: I like that!
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bruce Mowbray: (Hillman says it MUCH better than I!)
Calvino Rabeni: soul is associated with individuality, spirit with universality
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Avy Runner: yes
Avy Runner: I can see that
Alfred Kelberry: bruce, what happens when they combine?
Bruce Mowbray: I'd say just the reverse, Cal -- There is World Soul . . . whereas there are individual spirits.
Zen Arado: but that's the Christian distinction between body and spirit
Calvino Rabeni: soul is associated with immanence, spirit with transcendence
Zen Arado: the body seen as corrupt
Bruce Mowbray sits on hands and listens -- intently.
Alfred Kelberry: zen, that part is awful
Mickorod Renard: ponders
Zen Arado: reminds me of the soul wanting to join up with Brahman?
Mickorod Renard: lost for words
Agatha Macbeth: Anima Mundi
Zen Arado: sort of a corruptible body and a higher part that is spirit
Mickorod Renard: what does the dali lama say bout spirit?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes - World Soul.
Calvino Rabeni: if soul is associated with a downward direction, that's a metaphor meaning ... sinking, relaxing, slow, deep, hidden, obscure, all the qualities that earth appears to have in distinction to sky
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Cal, all of that -- well put, sir.
Calvino Rabeni: World Soul is a nice concept Bruce
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Very well put :)
Calvino Rabeni: it says metaphorically, there's a lot that does not immediately meet the eye, that can't be perceived in terms of forms and shapes
Avy Runner: Wrold can be associated with earth also
Avy Runner: and the qualities of it
Calvino Rabeni: these metaphors are based on the way we are embodied and the way our senses work
Agatha Macbeth: The word nephesh occurs 754 times in the Hebrew Old Testament.

In the A.V. and R.V. it is translated "soul" 472 times, while in the other 282 places it is represented by forty-four different words or phrases. In fifty-three of these places there is a marginal rendering which calls attention to the fact that the word is "nephesh", while in 229 passages the English reader has hitherto been left in ignorance of the fact. The English word "soul" is in every occurrence the rendering of the Hebrew nephesh, except in Job 30:15 and Isa. 57:16.

Though, with these two exceptions, the English word "soul" always represents the Hebrew nephesh, nephesh is not always translated "soul".
Avy Runner: yes
Avy Runner: descending, ascending, becoming body, becoming spirit
Bruce Mowbray: Our world's soul is sick and needs to be re-souled. . .
Bruce Mowbray: For Hillman, "soul" is about multiplicity and ambiguity, and about being polytheistic; it belongs to the night-world
of dreams where the lines across the phenomenal field are not so clearly drawn. Soul pathologizes: "it gets us into
trouble," as Moore writes, "it interferes with the smooth running of life, it obstructs attempts to understand, and it
seems to make relationships impossible." While spirit seeks unity and harmony, soul is in the vales, the depths.
Calvino Rabeni: If we "saw" on different frequencies, the earth would be a luminous cloud, .. then we'd have to find some other metaphors to locate hidden, obscure, and implicit qualities
Bruce Mowbray: - - - soul is in the depths. . .
Calvino Rabeni: thanks bruce
Bruce Mowbray: yw
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mickorod Renard: so maybesome o us,,me included,,or only me,,have mixed up soul with spirit?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well if we see differently like that, we will communicate differently also :)
Calvino Rabeni: It's important for soul not to be clear and controllable .. therefore it causes "trouble" in Hillman's way of seeing it
Gaya Ethaniel: Even if a tiger can speak, we can't understand it :P
Avy Runner: well, it's the sin side according to some parts of Christianity, the bodypart
Dao Yheng: Mick, I suspect your understanding is as reliable as anyone else's :)
Mickorod Renard: I am confused in that if we accept that idea then I have to adjust my vocabulary
Avy Runner: so that thinking is part of our culture
Zen Arado: I have to go
Calvino Rabeni: @mick, there's little consensus and lots of variety, I don't think there's a standard to conform to
Zen Arado: ty for discussion
Zen Arado: bye
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Zen :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Zen
Dao Yheng: night zen!
Mickorod Renard: ok,,so in that case,,,bye Zen
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zen, have fun
Avy Runner: bye zen :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Eep, too quick
Avy Runner: ick, for you it might be interesting to look at Father, Sun and Holy Spirit
Avy Runner: *Mick
Avy Runner: *Son
Mickorod Renard: in that case,,as a christian,,it sort of lend s more towards the holy spirit
Mickorod Renard: yes Avy,,ty
Avy Runner: yes
Avy Runner: to me that is
Mickorod Renard: mmm
Ataraxia Azemus: I should be going as well, though....thank you for your thoughts, everyone :)
Ataraxia Azemus: Take care! :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Atar
Dao Yheng: thank you too, Ata
Avy Runner: bye Atara :)
Agatha Macbeth: C ya Atari
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for coming bye Atari :)
Bruce Mowbray: I must go too. THANKS for this discussion.
Bruce Mowbray: bfn.
Mickorod Renard: bye bruce
Dao Yheng: bye bruce!
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Bruce :)
Avy Runner: bye Bruce :)
Agatha Macbeth: Nighty-night brucie
Avy Runner: those meetings are logged?
Calvino Rabeni: I think they are, Avy
Mickorod Renard: I thin its ben ver inteesting
Gaya Ethaniel: Which meetings?
Avy Runner: this one Gaya
Dao Yheng: on the wiki, avy
Dao Yheng: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes they are on the wiki under 'Discussion' :)
Agatha Macbeth: Where's eliza today?
Avy Runner: ok, thanks, have missed parts, would like to read it
Mickorod Renard: I liken this to ways of knowing
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Eliza can't always make this one.
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Mickorod Renard: there is not so much an answer, but an energy to work on and find reason
Avy Runner: I think she's busy
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Avy Runner: :) Mick
Mickorod Renard: :)
Dao Yheng: our new tagline :)
Avy Runner: I don't know about finding reason, but surely something to work on, without expecting an answer
Gaya Ethaniel: What? 'No answers'? :P
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: I often find lil inspirations
Avy Runner: hehe Gaya, THEN WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE !!!
Mickorod Renard: on the way to work
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, what are we doing here? :p
Gaya Ethaniel: oh ... I'm not here for answers ...
Mickorod Renard: most my thoughts stem from wok
Gaya Ethaniel: wow thanks Mick, we appreciate your participation too.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes true Mick
Mickorod Renard: thankyou
Dao Yheng: Wallace Stevens used to compose a poem on his walk to work every day :)
Calvino Rabeni: A variety of perspectives - helpful
Gaya Ethaniel: Give us one Dao :)
Calvino Rabeni: And William Stafford
Calvino Rabeni: a contemplative poet with a good sense of place
Mickorod Renard: yes, I had a great thought thismorning, it almost reduced me to tears it was so great
Calvino Rabeni: Rilke's a good soul poet
Mickorod Renard: ok,,must go now
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Mick :)
Dao Yheng: I
Among twenty snowy mountains,
The only moving thing
Was the eye of the blackbird.

II
I was of three minds,
Like a tree
In which there are three blackbirds.

III
The blackbird whirled in the autumn winds.
It was a small part of the pantomime.

IV
A man and a woman
Are one.
A man and a woman and a blackbird
Are one.

V
I do not know which to prefer,
The beauty of inflections
Or the beauty of innuendoes,
The blackbird whistling
Or just after.
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Mick
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone,,thankyo
Calvino Rabeni: I think John O'Donohue is a good Christian / Celtic philosopher somewhere between embodied and transcendent soul
Dao Yheng: from Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Blackbird -- goes on...
Dao Yheng: bye mick!
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Mick :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Agatha Macbeth: Me go too - sayonara
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Aggers :)
Calvino Rabeni: Sime here actually - hasta la vista :)
Dao Yheng: night all!
Avy Runner: bye veryone who goes
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye everyone :)