2010.09.30 - Imagination

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    Gaya Ethaniel: In case - http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Gaya Ethaniel: For links to reports ...
    Eliza Madrigal: ty Gaya
    Mitsu Ishii: so shall we start to talk about the topic?
    Calvino Rabeni: I was reading the homework reports on imagination.. always some surprises there, and some kind of expected things .. I guess that's imagination at work too
    Mitsu Ishii: your hair just appeared for me Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: to myself I have a blue mokawk, not by choice...
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Cute hat
    Eliza Madrigal: okay, so that worked... never mind the work behind the curtain ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: On the one hand is the perspective "hey I don't have imagination" ... on the other - that imagination is a property awareness in general 
    Dao Yheng: Calvino, are there other perspectives you were considering?
    Calvino Rabeni: There are so many perspectives
    Mitsu Ishii: I am curious, Calvino, first of all, what motivated you to choose this topic
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess an important issue there is ... does it get in the way, or does it serve as a gateway, or maybe when and how
    Xeno Octavia: do we mean visualization or fantasy
    Calvino Rabeni: I chose it because it seems like the fertile ground where awareness encounters reality - where the rubber meets the road
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting, nods
    Calvino Rabeni: And it may be a global integrative process for all more specialized ways of knowing
    Eliza Madrigal: that would need a little more unpacking... re all specialized ways of knowing... it does seem a kind of base
    Eliza Madrigal: or hm..
    Calvino Rabeni: One homework for instance talks two complimentary sides - that (1) imagination is part of all mental perception, and (2) it keeps us from what is "actually going on" by being too powerful
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya :)
    Dao Yheng: hi yaku!
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm still unsure imagination being a way of knowing here. For me imagination is a creative way of sythesising memories etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: and given that this group is Ways of Knowing, it seemed interesting to take that approach
    Calvino Rabeni: Artists and poets experience a creative side of imagination that seems more than just rearranging the data of memory
    Xeno Octavia: yes artist ive read are kind of tulku's
    Xeno Octavia: not all of course
    Heloise Toussaint: Hi everyone, sorry I'm so late
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Heloise :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Heloise, glad you made it
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello
    Xeno Octavia: hi
    Calvino Rabeni: We can segregate these different ways of knowing by how we define them ... or perhaps they are part of the "machine" of how the organism works .. it is hard to discriminate these two reasons for categorizing our capacities
    Dianket Wobbit: hello
    Xeno Octavia: hi
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dianket :)
    Heloise Toussaint: Hi
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dianket... saw you fly through the walls :) Guess you are having some of the issues I'm having today
    Calvino Rabeni: Each definition of imagination of course is the perspective of the way particular people think about it and use it
    Calvino Rabeni: Like evolutionary biologists explain it in terms of a survival function
    Dianket Wobbit: yes hard day.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Damian :)
    Dao Yheng: sound like you are also using imagination as a way of getting at the constructed nature of things?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Damian Barthelemy: hello to everybody:)
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that's a useful perspective too
    Dao Yheng: hi h!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Damian :)
    Xeno Octavia: hi
    Calvino Rabeni: I was also interested in how it relates to our feeling of having intentions
    Xeno Octavia: intentions??
    Agatha Macbeth: 'Thre is no try'
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose that imagination does factor into decisions, even if unbeknownst to ourselves...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, like the idea of the "self" using "imagination" for some purpose ....
    Calvino Rabeni: and then it gets kind of dried out
    Calvino Rabeni: but when it's experienced as unintentional
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Calvino Rabeni: then it seems more juicy or something
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: np
    Dianket Wobbit: Hi zen
    Eliza Madrigal: I think imagination in the context of meditation is interesting...
    Eliza Madrigal: for some a tool for others a distraction
    Calvino Rabeni: That dryness might be because only a very small part of cognitive and other activity is conscious
    Dianket Wobbit: i Think there cant be an unintentional experience
    Calvino Rabeni: so to control it with that conscious process, diminishes its potential
    Xeno Octavia: hi
    Xeno Octavia: [14:25] Calvino Rabeni: but when it's experienced as unintentional
     [14:25] Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Sorry I'm late
    Calvino Rabeni: It's perfect by definition ... maybe not as an experienced phenomenology
    Calvino Rabeni: If we don't know where our thoughts come from, then it's called intuition
    Xeno Octavia: ur entence were perfect:
    Dao Yheng: (apologies, I'm getting some crazy lag, sentences coming out of order on my screen)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I do think SL or this sim is having some issues today
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aphrodite :))
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably both
    Zen Arado: Hi Aphro :)
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes the sentences make more sense out of order... maybe
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aphrodite :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello
    Agatha Macbeth: No time
    Aphrodite Macbain: Tring to find a seat
    Eliza Madrigal: (just thinking of my own)
    Eliza Madrigal: /me giggles
    Mitsu Ishii: I was thinking, vis a vis imagination, that if you think abouit memory
    Eliza Madrigal: Next to Heloise, Aph
    Eliza Madrigal: Or Dianket
    Heloise Toussaint: There's space here
    Xeno Octavia: my thoght to liz
    Zen Arado: chronologically challenged :)
    Calvino Rabeni: even if there seems no choice
    Calvino Rabeni: By intention, sometimes people mean a sense of agency and of being at choice... in philosophy it could refer to the "me-ness" of experienced world
    Dao Yheng: (try clicking on a ball)
    Mitsu Ishii: we don't seem to store full "copies" of what happens, like a videotape
    Aphrodite Macbain: very laggy
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have my seat over there, I moved Aphrodite.
    Calvino Rabeni: really true Mitsu
    Calvino Rabeni: I seems we're not recorders
    Mitsu Ishii: it's much more likely that we store hints, and then more or less use those hints to create imagined memories
    Mitsu Ishii: which is perhaps why false memories are so compelling
    Calvino Rabeni: more like we "reimagine" the world in a way that basically tries to match what's happening
    Xeno Octavia: why memories
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you
    Zen Arado: we recreate memories
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods @ Mitsu... yes I was somehow picturing imagination as a substance that kind of wires things together, the more flexibly the more options are sees as available
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: *seen
    Calvino Rabeni: @Eliza, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: NO
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Zen Arado: imagination concrns the future mainly though?
    Calvino Rabeni: Memories supposedly of the past .. imagined also
    Mitsu Ishii: I think imagination is the past and the future, really
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, imagination is present... using all material, past future...
    Zen Arado: ah but that is 'imagination' as a false recreation surely
    Heloise Toussaint: You can imagine a past situation, and reimagine it in a different way surely?
    Xeno Octavia: real imagination [imaging] in the moment
    Mitsu Ishii: or that is, imagination is present, projections of the past and future
    Calvino Rabeni: and then get stuck with their identifications
    Calvino Rabeni: Which is interesting - people may "give up" on re-imagining the past, but not the future
    Zen Arado: but the imagination only draws on the past
    Heloise Toussaint: True
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the feeling - it already happened ... I can't change it :)
    Heloise Toussaint: Only what you've experienced so far I guess
    Calvino Rabeni: but the meaning can change radicaly of the past
    Dao Yheng: yes, even things we think are "known" about the past are mostly fictions
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: shaped by what?
    Eliza Madrigal: imagination
    Zen Arado: an imaginary past is a false past then?
    Aphrodite Macbain: and our own desires?
    Eliza Madrigal: well all past is false?
    Zen Arado: just a mistake
    Calvino Rabeni: Shaped by desires,wishes, and "reality check" things I suppose
    Xeno Octavia: if past like future multiple of possibilities past may b modified
    Heloise Toussaint: I'm sure we reimagine the past every time we think of it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zen Arado: yes
    Dianket Wobbit: sure
    Dianket Wobbit: What then is truth? A movable host of metaphors, metonymies, and;
     anthropomorphisms: in short, a sum of human relations which have been
     poetically and rhetorically intensified, transferred, and embellished,
     and which, after long usage, seem to a people to be fixed, canonical,
     and binding. Truths are illusions which we ...have forgotten are illusions-
     Friedrich Nietzsche - "On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense"
    Zen Arado: highlight some things - suppress others
    Zen Arado: yes great Di
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel there's no valid way to define a "mistake" in any airtight
    Aphrodite Macbain: If this is true, if the past is just a story we tell ourselves, what can we learn from the past?
    Xeno Octavia: isnt truth the dropping of intellectualisms
    Zen Arado: true
    Calvino Rabeni: Nietzche was digging in fertile ground
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think so Xeno
    Dao Yheng: thanks, Dianket!
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Why would we expect our non-intellectual faculties to be any truer?
    Xeno Octavia: i usually tell ppl 'truth is the next lie i tell u'
    Zen Arado: illusions is better than 'mistakes'
    Dianket Wobbit: but also what is done ,is done not even god can chage it
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that's the same idea, Zen
    Zen Arado: is ther any 'true' view of ourselves?
    Xeno Octavia: yes drop emotuional and physical too
    Zen Arado: we and everything else are always changing
    Calvino Rabeni: illusions and mistakes are both derogatory judgments of experienced realoty
    Aphrodite Macbain: derogatory?
    Zen Arado: but the 'illusion' judgement might be true
    Calvino Rabeni: And it is a metaphysical question, is there anything left after all the supposed inaccurate knowing is dropped
    Calvino Rabeni: Derogatory - means it has a negative connotation that may not be the whole story
    Xeno Octavia: do we distinguish relative from absolute truth
    Zen Arado: agree - we are working with an assumption of a 'true reality' somewhere
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb
    Mitsu Ishii: I think truth is not about propositions
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods @ Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree Mitzu
    Aphrodite Macbain: the truth?
    Xeno Octavia: true reality doesnt exist - is non-existential
    Calvino Rabeni: We imagine ... that there is a true reality
    Aphrodite Macbain: propositions are a form of question
    Zen Arado: like PLato
    Eliza Madrigal: well, more 'beliefs' ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: another truer world beyond our experience
    Zen Arado: 'propositional attitudes'
    Eliza Madrigal: hidden beliefs, I would 'imagine'...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Propositions are a tacit way to ignore most things about reality and imagine that some of them deserve more importance in a particular moment and context
    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting, Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: another story?
    Zen Arado: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_attitude
    Xeno Octavia: actually r sambhoga truths diff than nirmana
    Calvino Rabeni: Unconscious propositional attitudes
    Calvino Rabeni: a term for "myths"
    Zen Arado: it's a stance in philos of mind
    Heloise Toussaint: Even when you believe you're speakingGoing back to the past discussion, there's a theory in quantum physics that says that the past isn't set in stone but can be changed http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-lanza/does-the-past-exist-yet-e_b_683103.html
    Zen Arado: just observing change it
    Heloise Toussaint: Sorry, I was mid sentence then wandered off to find that link
    Aphrodite Macbain: changed by our memoery of it?
    Dianket Wobbit: God cant change the past, but journalist can :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I was wondering whether the group title - Ways of Knowing - indicated a preference for an experiential approach - instead of Types of Knowledge for instance
    Heloise Toussaint: changed by our observation of it
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Zen Arado: it sounds open to me
    Zen Arado: but I am less and less impressed by conceptual knowledge
    Aphrodite Macbain: but we would have to remember it to observe it
    Heloise Toussaint: yes
    Heloise Toussaint: I was just throwing something I found interesting out there
    Heloise Toussaint: not saying it's true or not
    Xeno Octavia: yes Zen --what i meant by intellectual
    Aphrodite Macbain: so the only way to change the past is to remember it differently?
    Calvino Rabeni: Re-imagining the past ... remembering differently
    Calvino Rabeni: given the influence it has on us - it could change the quality of the present
    Aphrodite Macbain: Isn't that called revisionism?
    Xeno Octavia: actually i'd say to foeget attachment to Aphro
    Agatha Macbeth: The Ministry of truth
    Aphrodite Macbain: absolutely
    Zen Arado: suddenly realizing my clinging to a 'true' version of the past
    Calvino Rabeni: That woudl be a derogatory term Aphro
    Eliza Madrigal: /me waves to Susan
    Aphrodite Macbain: I should forget it?
    Eliza Madrigal: Aw but I like Aphro
    Aphrodite Macbain: Xeno?
    Calvino Rabeni: Imagination might reveal - revelation as Eliza put it in her report
    Aphrodite Macbain: ?
    Xeno Octavia: let go of it
    Calvino Rabeni: might reveal new, latent, but also true possibilities not seen before about the past
    Xeno Octavia: why stay in past
    Eliza Madrigal: kidding.. sorry ::sits on hands:::
    Calvino Rabeni: not so fixed, then ...
    Xeno Octavia: ur hands to fluffy to sit on
    Eliza Madrigal: okay, not sitting on hands. I consider imagination to be very present friend to awareness
    Calvino Rabeni: By "past" you mean the fixed story I think Xeno
    Eliza Madrigal: I imagine that when we embody here in SL right >here< >now> it takes a bit of imaginationw
    Xeno Octavia: yes Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: oh yes
    Dianket Wobbit: think again the past, do a new healthy construction, and the present will change
    Calvino Rabeni: but if it'
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Zen Arado: live in the present moment and deal with whatever comes up from the past?
    Zen Arado: past events are stored in our body too I thinnk
    Calvino Rabeni: agree DIanket
    Eliza Madrigal: empathy requires imagination as well
    Heloise Toussaint: yes very much so, I agree
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes zen, stored in our body
    Calvino Rabeni: if that's true then what we do now with our body can affect the experienced past
    Xeno Octavia: change what u store changes body!?
    Zen Arado: what our mind does to our body
    Calvino Rabeni: and vice versa, giveen that they are one
    Calvino Rabeni: bodymind
    Calvino Rabeni: or dreambody
    Xeno Octavia: also is basis of Rolfing
    Zen Arado: ah yes - another way of false thinking I cling to :)
    Zen Arado: mind/body dualism
    Dao Yheng: (early goodbyes -- thanks for an interesting discussion!)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Dao :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Dao :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I've noticed often - my felt sense of the significance of the past is carred in the body of the present by it being held a certain way
    Zen Arado: bye Dao
    Xeno Octavia: bye Dao
    Heloise Toussaint: Bye
    Zen Arado: Rolfing Xeno?
    Agatha Macbeth: Who is?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is Zeno getting taller?
    Heloise Toussaint: I'm sure there are things you remember that make you maybe feel sad, and it affects your body and you slump etc
    Xeno Octavia: what of those who use the future to go 'forward'
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd guess yoga practitioners or martial artists too would experience the bodymind connection as it affects appraisal of the past
    Zen Arado: you know about Tolle's 'pain body'?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's called muscle memory
    Agatha Macbeth: My muscles have amnesia
    Xeno Octavia: ida Rolf has a body integrative priocess that rids one of past that are buried in body
    Calvino Rabeni: theres the ideas of the "subtle bodies" in general
    Aphrodite Macbain: /me sits forward to listen
    Mitsu Ishii: recognizing the ways in which we imagine our past and even our present, gives us a way to find something prior to that
    Zen Arado: ah o Xeno
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods @ Mitsu... questioning the fixedness of things
    Zen Arado: but should we 'dig up' the past
    Zen Arado: ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Archeologists would say yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: why not?
    Mitsu Ishii: it's not that we should dig up the past, it's that we should see the way we construct the past right now
    Zen Arado: :) aga !
    Eliza Madrigal: depends on what you're going to do with it ;-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: If it's fertile soil
    Xeno Octavia: yes Mitsu
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That is what happens after "dropping"
    Calvino Rabeni: imagination can break up the fixedness and open the door to somethng more fluid, different, *maybe* more revealing of othe aspects of reality
    Heloise Toussaint: in a way the past makes us who we are now, we are a sum of our past sort of?
    Calvino Rabeni: plowing the field
    Mitsu Ishii: actually I don't think we're the sum of our past, I think we're much freer than that
    Agatha Macbeth: Would ddefinitely agree Hel
    Xeno Octavia: our personal pasts are so little a part of our authentic reality
    Dianket Wobbit: yes
    Heloise Toussaint: I'm not saying that it's fixed
    Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully somewhat freer than a simple sum of some past "stuff"
    Eliza Madrigal: seeing the construction allows us to work with it... question it....
    Heloise Toussaint: I don't mean defining ourselves by our past
    Dianket Wobbit: ‎...I lit a thin green candle to make you jealous of me
     But the room just filled up with mosquitoes
     Leonard Cohen
    Susan Aloix: *digging up the past* or *re-reading the past*? the lived past is not found in archaeological digs
    Eliza Madrigal: /me nods
    Heloise Toussaint: just what we have experienced so far informs us
    Calvino Rabeni: BUt tremendously influenced
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh My.... workshop is nearly over...
    Eliza Madrigal: for the day :)
    Xeno Octavia: but is good time had
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's importanto to distinguish practically, between our experienced semi-bondage to past conditions, and the *ideal* that we might somehow be completely free
    Zen Arado: sometimes think it's better to just deal with what surfaces in the present than uncover things we are not ready to face from the past
    Aphrodite Macbain: The ting about digging - you never know what you migh find. A treasure or a bunch of worms
    Xeno Octavia: we can sorta save this past : ))
    Calvino Rabeni: Very true Zen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for the reports again and participating everyone.
    Calvino Rabeni: We shouldn't invoke a demon, unless able to handle it
    Zen Arado: yes Aphro said the same thoing
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks again Calvino :)
    Zen Arado: thanks Cal and everyone
    Agatha Macbeth: Thx cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks everyone :) afraid I have a next appointment now ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Appreciate the topics Calvino... find this interesting material
    Heloise Toussaint: Thank you
    Calvino Rabeni: TY
    Agatha Macbeth: What time do you call this gilles?
    Calvino Rabeni: What about next time?
    Gilles Kuhn: ouch sorry i am too late
    Gaya Ethaniel: A reminder - please do not edit the wiki from tomorrow.
    Calvino Rabeni: YW
    Susan Aloix: Thanks cal and all :)
    Xeno Octavia: yes Thanks Cal
    Gaya Ethaniel: Until it's moved ...
    Dianket Wobbit: thanks Calvino and all you
    Calvino Rabeni: /me eyes Eliza about 'next time"
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please IM me if you'd like an invite to our email group.
    Xeno Octavia: ?? Gaya
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or an access to the wiki ..
    Damian Barthelemy: thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: moi?
    Calvino Rabeni: /me smiles at Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Xeno, we are moving our server so we need to have a break from editing wiki for a few days.
    Eliza Madrigal: uh oh.... laaaaag... going through a tuunnneeellll
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Xeno Octavia: ah kool --why i couldnt today : ))
    Zen Arado: no homework then ?
    Mitsu Ishii: so shall we do another Calvino topic next week?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will inform you the progress etc in the group email.
    Dianket Wobbit: can be interesting to hear next time how this chat changed us
    Mitsu Ishii: I figure we can do at least a couple more Calvino topics
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sure why not :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: As before please email the group Calvino?
    Mitsu Ishii: Calvino, if you could email to the group your topic soon, we can start on it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: /me -yes, stay tuned :)
    Zen Arado: funny how we talked mostly about the past and I thought imagination was about the future
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: yes it was
    Zen Arado: bye Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: we're getting good at aimelessness
    Xeno Octavia: imagining about the now
    Xeno Octavia: right on target : )
    Eliza Madrigal: The reports are probably really important to the discussion also
    Eliza Madrigal: so I'd encourage everyone to IM gaya to be added :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Which I have just done! Next time I'll be a little more prepared.
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: excellent, happy to have so many here today
    Zen Arado: thanks for interesting discussion
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting voices and imputs, just great
    Xeno Octavia: yes most kool see ya'all later : ))
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hope you get your body back Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, me too....
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye all
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now everyone (sort of like walking someone to their car and saying bye dozens of times... hehe)
    Susan Aloix: Bye Eliza :)
    Heloise Toussaint: Ciao
    Dianket Wobbit: bye Eliza
    Agatha Macbeth: /me hugs Liz
    Eliza Madrigal: how did you know that... hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Hugs Agatha back :)
    Agatha Macbeth: :)

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