2010.09.08 - Prajna and Heart Sutra (part 2)

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    Xeno Octavia: hi folks
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
    Dao Yheng: Hi all!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xeno :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino, Dao and Xeno :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey, Agatha :)
    Dao Yheng: nice to see some familiar faces (and wolves)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello hello
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Dao
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha :)
    Agatha Macbeth smiles cheesily
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Xeno Octavia: r we silently meditating or did i crash again
    Dao Yheng: Just had a quick look at the reports -- noticed some similar threads
    Agatha Macbeth: You crashed again...
    Xeno Octavia: thought so
    Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: I am having issues loading the page at the moment...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and was waiting for Zen. :) Hi Zen
    Dao Yheng: :) hi zen!
    Eliza Madrigal: (grrr.. lines switching)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello dere Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi All
    Dao Yheng: back from retreat?
    Zen Arado: yep
    Agatha Macbeth: Retreat?
    Eliza Madrigal: Welcome back Zen :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Was your hot pink shirt a hit?
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Dao Yheng: still having that fresh out of the laundry feeling?
    Zen Arado: scared to try that
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: would have been thrown out :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And thrown back in again...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Dao Yheng: without the shirt on your back, I'm sure :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Gilles, nice to have you back. I guess Summer is officially over?
    Xeno Octavia: always summer here
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Dao Yheng: Nice Xeno
    Gilles Kuhn: i was never really away eliza
    Gilles Kuhn: and summer is over at fall equinox so no
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay.. was able to read reports. I guess I will have to read big pine commentary...
    Eliza Madrigal: hah, :) Well nice to see you anyway Gilles
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: Zen, I wanted to ask how you wrote your last two?
    Dao Yheng: at two different times?
    Zen Arado: wrote them yesterday
    Zen Arado: actually enjoyed the incentive to read and think about the commentary
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Xeno Octavia: u talkin bout stuf on wiki? yes!
    Dao Yheng: me too
    Zen Arado: no - the Red PIne commentary
    Dao Yheng: Did you find the quote "Emptiness is not nothing, it's everything, everything at once." at the start or the end of your reporting task?
    Xeno Octavia whispers: ???
    Gaya Ethaniel: Some of us read this book - http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductD....asp?PID=14388
    Zen Arado: don't remember
    Zen Arado: found his description of the skandas interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, in that regard I was very interested in what you write of Avilokitesvara
    Zen Arado: he describes the one usually calle volitions or mental formations etc as memory
    Xeno Octavia: and the commentary ?
    Zen Arado: that was the commentary
    Gilles Kuhn: memory of what anterior volition or mental constructs?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, the reports are here Zeno: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Calvino Rabeni: "Emptiness is everything at once" - including presumably the somewhat maligned thinking process
    Eliza Madrigal: Xeno*
    Gaya Ethaniel: Xeno, the book is commentaries on the Heart Sutra ... we are talking abou that.
    Xeno Octavia: the wiki lol !!
    Gaya Ethaniel: And yes, there are reports on the link.
    Xeno Octavia: kool
    Gaya Ethaniel: I found his translation quite interesting.
    Calvino Rabeni: xano uraqt2 :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Usually we just go straight into 'Shariputra ...'
    Gaya Ethaniel: He points out 'Here' is missing before 'Shariputra' and how that word is like a poke that a Zen teacher may give to a student ... :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: And talks a bit about sound and mantra there too.
    Dao Yheng: It has been a fun book to read -- the way each word expands out into all these different meanings and connotations and historical references
    Gilles Kuhn: well just read some of the material in what are they different that benares sermonts fundamentals?
    Gilles Kuhn: and more prufundly is that an affirmation of emptiness from a subjective perspective or from an ontological one? in others words is em^tiness only a goal to alliviate suffering existential or otherwise or a parmenidian like excuse for refusing knowledge and research?
    Calvino Rabeni: Good question Gilles
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Xeno Octavia: its like basis of ecstatic being
    Eliza Madrigal: more to bring about incisive knowing ...
    Zen Arado: emptiness seems more the fact that every thing is interconnected
    Calvino Rabeni: Would you prefer your phenomenology (a) transcendental or (b) psychological, or (c) ontological, etc.
    Zen Arado: that things don't have any self existence
    Calvino Rabeni: It's actually a practical question
    Xeno Octavia: emptiness is empty of conditionings
    Gilles Kuhn: in which way practical?
    Calvino Rabeni: Is your emptiness ontological or psychological
    Gilles Kuhn: and more i hear about it more it seems to me that all this concept of emptiness is not only fuzzy but empty in the habitual meaning of the word
    Xeno Octavia: emptry of BIG words
    Zen Arado: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: Gilles; emptiness is not at all a refusal to do research. quite the opposite
    Calvino Rabeni: It's practical because of what it implies about behavior for the person who takes it as a description of some reality and bases behavior on those assumptions
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dianket :)
    Zen Arado: "Any given entity can only be defined in terms of other entities in time, space, or mind.
    Gilles Kuhn: to say that emptiness is everything is as saying that being is everything but that dont say anything about anything
    Zen Arado: have a seat Dianket
    Mitsu Ishii: the notion of emptiness is fundamentally about research and careful investigation. it is essentially an invitation to endless research
    Calvino Rabeni: So that sounds ontological, what Zen said
    Gilles Kuhn: sure zen then let define them in their relative interaction not in general empty concepts
    Calvino Rabeni: And that sounds psychological, what Mitsu said
    Dao Yheng: But it's also true that the word emptiness has been applied on several different levels and in different domains -- both by the tradition and its practitioners -- there is some fuzziness there
    Zen Arado: we are discussing the heart sutra Di
    Xeno Octavia: emptyness is no thing
    Mitsu Ishii: no, it's not psychological; it's ontological
    Dianket Wobbit: hello all
    Mitsu Ishii: there are many aspects to it
    Dianket Wobbit: hi zen thanks
    Calvino Rabeni: According to tradition it's taken as ontological
    Mitsu Ishii: the fundamental idea is that one has to question every ontology.
    Mitsu Ishii: so this is not to say that one cannot adopt provisional ontologies
    Gilles Kuhn: ok mitsu that at least has some sense
    Mitsu Ishii: but it rejects the idea that any ontology is final.
    Xeno Octavia: ok then whats ontilogical --the word mean
    Zen Arado: but there is a practical outcome surely
    Mitsu Ishii: so for that reason, no matter how far one can come in one's ontological investigation, there can still be more. that's basically the idea.
    Zen Arado: Buddhism isn't too concerned with ontological questions I think
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the transcendental phenomenologists take their theory as an injunction to attempt to stand beyond assumptions, while the psychological phenomenologists take it as a guideline to more flexible perception and more fluid conceptualization
    Gilles Kuhn: then as ontology is beyond in occidental philosophy since kant our capacity to know why still torture ourselves with it?
    Mitsu Ishii: so there's definitely not a rejection of knowledge, rather a rejection of final knowledge.
    Xeno Octavia: emptiness no end and no begin!?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, there's a lot of torturing going on in the name of ontology
    Mitsu Ishii: from a psychological persepctive, yes, it can be used as a way of making our perceptions more flexible
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght Mitsu
    Zen Arado: we realize we aren't separate beings
    Mitsu Ishii: we can adopt provisional perceptual categories, but never assume that this is "reality" or the final picture.
    Eliza Madrigal: torture is often holding onto a 'piece' of knowledge and continually trying to fit everything to it...
    Gilles Kuhn: and well calvino i have already make paté and sushi of phenomenology here a lot of time non bis in idem....
    Calvino Rabeni: And from an ontological theory perspective, an invitation to duller possibilities
    Mitsu Ishii: so the Heart Sutra says "form is emptiness, emptiness is form". this isn't some silly tautology but rather an attempt to capture the two major directions
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh Giles
    Gilles Kuhn: ontological theory is an oxymoron
    Mitsu Ishii: so "form is emptiness" is basically saying: no ontology is final.
    Calvino Rabeni: Except that one, if as one here said, emptines is ontological
    Mitsu Ishii: "emptiness is form" is to say that even though no ontology is final, all the forms we perceive and interact with are nonetheless comprised of this non-final ontological reality
    Calvino Rabeni: it's kind of like wrappign up all theories into one in order to then dispose of it
    Mitsu Ishii: so you can't use "emptiness" as a way of simply retreating into some sort of naive nihilism.
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Gilles Kuhn: sorry mitsu bit non final ontological reality seems contradictory in terms to me
    Mitsu Ishii: that's why they basically say both directons: neither nihilist nor naively realist.
    Gilles Kuhn: bit =but*
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, you're right :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I have to interpret the "theory" as a dialectic maneuver
    Mitsu Ishii: essentially they're saying that ontology really ought to be reframed as an impossible endeavor, except one can adopt in a weak sense provisional ontologies which aren't really ontological in the philosophical sense.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, like that
    Calvino Rabeni: Provisional ontologies chosen and used for pragmatic reasons
    Mitsu Ishii: they're trying to tread the line in between various forms of realism and nihilism, rejecting both
    Gilles Kuhn: ok but then its only using hypothetic stance
    Calvino Rabeni: Which seem then to function as mythologies
    Xeno Octavia: if onto is empty isnt it logical ta drop it??
    Gilles Kuhn: which is a very comon method
    Mitsu Ishii: well this brings up the Diamond Sutra vs the Heart Sutra
    Mitsu Ishii: so the Heart Sutra is mostly talking at this very high level, sort of a meta-level
    Xeno Octavia: diamonds are a hearts best friend!
    Mitsu Ishii: the Diamond Sutra is saying, let's look at specific ontological views, and deconstruct those
    Zen Arado: is this kind of transcendental wisdom reducuble to philosophical categories?
    Mitsu Ishii: for exmaple, self vs other, things vs other things, etc.
    Mitsu Ishii: time, past/present/future
    Mitsu Ishii: so they are saying it's worth investigating various ontological theories and seeing why they're inadequate in practical ways
    Xeno Octavia: and 'now'
    Calvino Rabeni: Emptiness as a stance is a story that says - hey we can deconstruct whatever the heck we want
    Gilles Kuhn: you can take these concepts not as ontological views but as more or less working hypothesis
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well such a text or say a philosophy book would always be a hypothesis to me Gilles. It's up to me to take up the invitation as Mitsu put it to find out for myself.
    Mitsu Ishii: so they don't think you can just go "let's forget about ontology" because it still structures our perception and thought whether we are explicit about it or not.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Buddhism isn't about dogma ...
    Calvino Rabeni: But the whole emphasis on deconstruction - how about deconstructing THAT?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Zen, my feeling is that they are almost diff universes though of course one might be a metaphor to open a sense of the other...
    Gilles Kuhn: deririda and other post modern found the same problem: result is utter absurdism and nihilism
    Gilles Kuhn: derrida*
    Mitsu Ishii: unlike the philosophers in the west, Buddhists are also concerned with how this plays out practically in everyday life
    Xeno Octavia: thats good!!
    Mitsu Ishii: so it's not just an abstract question. they want to look at what these questions mean for us in everyday terms
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen, is that relatively transcendental or transcendental in an ontological sense?
    Zen Arado: the Buddha was pretty unconcerned with philosipkical theorizing in my opinion
    Calvino Rabeni: It's so easy to foret that, Mitsu
    Gilles Kuhn: and that is at my opinion a typical buddhist fallacy mitsu as they mix two different things without justifying it but for their existantial wishes
    Zen Arado: we're talking ontology
    Mitsu Ishii: haha, yes, I can see how you might think that, but in fact I can make a very good argument for their position.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: this is a common place... a razor's edge we often find ourselves no, which perhaps illustrates the point quite well... the perceived tension between form and emptiness
    Eliza Madrigal: no=on
    Calvino Rabeni: Well if that's true Zen, then Buddha might not have cared much for ontology
    Xeno Octavia: i'd hope so
    Eliza Madrigal: he might have cared as much as for anything... for anything as a pointer
    Zen Arado: no I don't think he did
    Eliza Madrigal: so there seems value in all exploration but not stopping there
    Mitsu Ishii: for me, the philosophy has had extremely practical implications for my moment to moment life
    Calvino Rabeni: A very reluctant proponent of any of his ideas, I gather
    Zen Arado: refused to answer questions about it often
    Gilles Kuhn: i personnaly dont care if a hindu prince didnt or did care for something i care only if he has said something relevant about it
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and what makes it relevant...
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, of course. Shakyamuni was just some guy.
    Calvino Rabeni: SO don't ontological theories invite, or nearly demand, that one "stop there"?
    Eliza Madrigal: what might make it relevant is direct application
    Zen Arado: maybe such questions are unamswerable with logic
    Mitsu Ishii: the real issues are things we have to look into now, it doesn't matter what some guy thought thousands of years ago, per se.
    Xeno Octavia: have any of u read 'zen and the ART OF POSTMODERNISM'
    Gilles Kuhn: well eliza i assume you can at a certain level see the relevance in intellectual argument
    Calvino Rabeni: :) MItsu
    Mitsu Ishii: here's a simple example
    Mitsu Ishii: so Buddhists (and many philosophers) question the notion of "objects"
    Gilles Kuhn: per se no but if the argument is correct it does mattter
    Mitsu Ishii: also so do many researchers in perception, for example, in science
    Mitsu Ishii: so one way to take this discussion of "objects" is in an intellectual sphere
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose I question correct in the context..
    Mitsu Ishii: but another way is to think about how it structures our moment to moment perception
    Gilles Kuhn: and who utter the argument is irrelevant if the argument is not link with others linked to him (a manner of putting the refusal of authoritative arguments)
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, listening Mitsu
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure Mitsu, so what's the hangup we have with objects, talking about them like we still think they exist ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Because it's nearly unanimous that they don't :)
    Mitsu Ishii: so one can say that the "idea" of objects isn't just a concept, but it is a neurological pattern, it's part of how our perceptual system structures our reality at a preconscious level
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Xeno Octavia: did Buddha 'hate' intelectualism
    Gilles Kuhn is considering gently hitting calvino with a stone in a berkeleysian way....;-)
    Mitsu Ishii: so, for example, I was on retreat, doing quite a bit of practice
    Mitsu Ishii: we were doing both sitting meditation and other things
    Gilles Kuhn imagine the others things ....;;-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: yah, but if hit with that stone, my response wouldn't look very object like to you, Gilles :)
    Mitsu Ishii: then I walked outside after a long practice session and looked around. we were in a natural setting with trees and so on
    Mitsu Ishii: and I was quite shocked
    Gilles Kuhn: my point calvino my point.....
    Calvino Rabeni: Understand Mitsu, I think
    Mitsu Ishii: because suddenly I was vividly aware that all the "things" around me were intensely apparent in a totally different way from usual
    Gaya Ethaniel give a big shove ... Gilles behave!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P
    Gilles Kuhn: trance state induce that usually.....
    Mitsu Ishii: when I saw the trees, for example, I suddenly was extremely conscious of every leaf, every negative space between the leaves, all the incredible variety of shapes and light patterns
    Calvino Rabeni: On my last meditation ride, all the things of the urban environment appeared to be starting to detach from one another and float away
    Gilles Kuhn: but too deep intelectual thinking i know...
    Mitsu Ishii: I realized
    Mitsu Ishii: that
    Mitsu Ishii: normally, I don't really SEE the trees or the grass or stuff around me very directly
    Dao Yheng: we're not in a trance state now?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we are
    Gilles Kuhn: i am not
    Mitsu Ishii: normally, I'm taking a blob of intense sensory input and I just put a label on it "TREE" or "BUSH" or "FENCE" or "ROAD"
    Agatha Macbeth: I agree cal :)
    Mitsu Ishii: and that label sort of obscures the actual thing I am seeing
    Calvino Rabeni: @mitsu, or more likely "landscape" :)
    Mitsu Ishii: so the world turns into a bunch of objects. this is clearly a neurological phenomenon
    Calvino Rabeni: And it might not be a word, but a feeling
    Eliza Madrigal: Xeno, am sure not (re hating intellectualizing), which doesn't mean he would have wanted to be stuck there, ie not seeing through the pointers and labels...
    Calvino Rabeni: a felt sense of "what exists"
    Mitsu Ishii: but the point of practice is to loosen up our categories and object-ification
    Zen Arado: and we use the labels to construct arguments
    Gilles Kuhn: mitsu could you point a single non neurological phenomenon?
    Mitsu Ishii: well I mean, it could also be, say, muscular or physiological or due to the air or color of the light and so on.
    Mitsu Ishii: in this case it's likely primarily neurological.
    Mitsu Ishii: anyway, the point I am making is that the practices here are not merely meant to help us understand some concept or idea
    Gilles Kuhn: right but as we all agree all phenomenon are neurological constructs
    Zen Arado: they are co creations surely
    Mitsu Ishii: they are meant to be practical ways of literally reshaping the way we pattern our world
    Mitsu Ishii: at a preconscious level
    Eliza Madrigal: not that I should speak for that particular person, hah... just a sense of what the sutra texts seem to convey (@ Xeno)
    Gilles Kuhn: and so can be modified by neurological practice like drugs trance meditation or rational thinking and observation
    Zen Arado: or conditioning
    Mitsu Ishii: which has the salutary effect of making us able to break our narrow categories and reshape them more flexibly in response to the world
    Gilles Kuhn: too
    Mitsu Ishii: One person asked Shunryu Suzuki to summarize Zen in one sentence
    Mitsu Ishii: he said, "Everything changes"
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, well Giles, can I modify my bank account in that way, say, in under a minute, so that it stays that way and becomes part of the consensus trance?
    Gilles Kuhn: good point calvino no you cant but you can strongly believe it
    Xeno Octavia: i think Dharma is Truth and buddhism a western intellectualization
    Mitsu Ishii: the idea here is that we are trapped by ideas
    Mitsu Ishii: concepts, objects, ontologies
    Zen Arado: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: so we want to relax our categories to some degree
    Mitsu Ishii: not to "get rid of them"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but what then?
    Mitsu Ishii: but simply to be more flexible with them
    Zen Arado: they are useful but we put too much weight on them
    Gilles Kuhn: and indeed calvino thats what intersubjectivity and rationnality is about limitation of your conceptualisation of the external world in term of external efficiency
    Mitsu Ishii: to adapt to change, to be able to reframe our world. sort of like yoga makes our bodies more flexible
    Calvino Rabeni: What I'm wondering is, why a discussion of these ideas primarily fixates on the binding properties of concepts?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Mitzu
    Eliza Madrigal: its a flip, a no distinction between inner/outer
    Mitsu Ishii: not only concepts but perception, even patterns in our bodies and in the world, society, and so forth
    Dao Yheng: I'm not sure that's a requirement, Cal, but maybe in the west it is :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Not to be a spoil sport, but we may want to discuss upcoming discussions, with Cal and others here...
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe that comes first, practically, and we can forget about worrying about the concepts and their binding properties
    Gaya Ethaniel: Using logic and human intelligence is valued within the Buddhist tradition. It's just that it is very much concerned with how it can be applicable to everyday life. Often intellectual arguments can just end there ...
    Mitsu Ishii: I personally think it's all interrelated
    Gaya Ethaniel: Valued ... well regarded as essential I'd say.
    Eliza Madrigal waves to Mick at the bar
    Mitsu Ishii: you can focus on practice, or philosophy, or poetry, or whatever...
    Mitsu Ishii: they're all interrelated to me
    Mickorod Renard: waves back
    Calvino Rabeni: Cream puff enlightenment
    Calvino Rabeni: OR cafe latte
    Gilles Kuhn: homo sum nihil homine a me alienum puto indeed mitsu
    Xeno Octavia: is there a diff tween mental and intellectual
    Gilles Kuhn: (i am a man nothing human is foreign to me)
    Mitsu Ishii: intellectual investigations in Buddhism can become practice too, as Stim likes to say. but for most people they have to meditate too, or perhaps mostly
    Mitsu Ishii: I like philosophy because I find it helps me situate my practice experiences in a way that fits with my rational faculty.
    Gilles Kuhn: thsi notion of practice is deeply exotic not to say annoying to me because it imply that there is a goal
    Calvino Rabeni: ** Mitsu
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: well that's a whole other topic Gilles ... in fact we're talking about it as though there is a goal but there isn't a goal
    Calvino Rabeni: Well Giles if you practice, you can drop the annoyance - just kidding, sorry
    Eliza Madrigal: )
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Xeno Octavia: there is no goal Gilles --try dance meditaion --its moving!!
    Mitsu Ishii: we could spend a whole series of sessions talking about goal vs no goal
    Eliza Madrigal: I will have to go in just a moment... but if the session continues I'll be happy to post the log sent to me
    Calvino Rabeni: OR intention - now there's a juicy subject
    Gaya Ethaniel: When I practise a piano let's say, I do it for enjoyment ... no goals. It doesn't have to come with goals ...
    Eliza Madrigal: and yet there is satisfaction gaya...
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, if there is a "goal" one might just say it's to live life in a satisfying way
    Eliza Madrigal: no goals and yet satisfaction. I find that amazing
    Xeno Octavia: music and art meditation too
    Gilles Kuhn: i do practoce fencing and i have a lot of practice in liquors and wine and i know perfectly the goals in those but i will not refer to an intellectual open reflexion as practice as it is meant to find news things
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: Only an economist would say, the goal of playing the piano is to maximize enjoyment
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, but finding new things is valuable, isn't it?
    Mickorod Renard: satisfaction will do me
    Gilles Kuhn: depend
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: I mean, feeling pain could be interesting too
    Calvino Rabeni: Finding new things - not a practice and not a goal?
    Mitsu Ishii: so it can't be narrowed down really
    Gilles Kuhn: to find you are mortals is a bad news lot of us would have prefered not to have for example
    Mitsu Ishii: it's not about finding "positive" things really
    Xeno Octavia whispers: if emptyness beginless and endless how goalify it??
    Mitsu Ishii: it's just about being more fully who we are exploring that
    Calvino Rabeni: No, nothing is positive or not positive
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone :) Interesting session and hope we continue...
    Gilles Kuhn: if emptiness is nothing then how to speak about it and what is its interest
    Calvino Rabeni: intrinsically, anyway
    Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
    Mitsu Ishii: if we are stuck thinking the earth is flat and the world is 6000 years old
    Dao Yheng: I think 'goals' are what we have when we aren't enjoying it yet :)
    Mitsu Ishii: that's just kind of a limited perspective and isn't as fun
    Dao Yheng: bye eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, so glad to stay for that line Dao ;-)
    Mitsu Ishii: bye eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: hhaha, Bye everyone
    Zen Arado: bye Eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: The meanings of emptiness are Legion
    Gaya Ethaniel: If you're all coming next week, I'd be happy to hear a continuation of this discussion :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Eliza :)
    Xeno Octavia: bye
    Eliza Madrigal is Offline
    Mitsu Ishii: Gilles always makes these sessions exciting
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Liz, bye evreybody
    Calvino Rabeni: TC Eliza :)
    Mitsu Ishii: haha
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gilles Kuhn: agreed mitsu knowledge is about fun as wine is as say solomon in the ecclesiast (well legend attribute it to this mythical figure)
    Mitsu Ishii: exactly!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: on that note of agreement perhaps we can talk further about goals and goallessness and so forth next week?
    Mickorod Renard: understanding something can be either end of the scale but it is satisfying to comprehend
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok, thanks everyone :)
    Gilles Kuhn: and thanks for the compliment mitsu i like to be an exciting person ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Or intentions / intentionality, to personalize it a bit?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: sure
    Zen Arado: or attaining and non-attainment?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Calvino, sounds good.
    Mitsu Ishii: all of those
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Zen that too!
    Mitsu Ishii: okay, so we have a topic
    Zen Arado: same thing
    Mitsu Ishii: take care everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)
    Zen Arado: bye Mits
    Calvino Rabeni: Houston, We Have A Topic
    Gilles Kuhn: bye mitsu
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Mitsu Ishii: bye all
    Mitsu Ishii is Offline
    Mickorod Renard: and you Mitsu
    Zen Arado: we have a problem :)
    Dao Yheng: :) bye all!
    Calvino Rabeni: TC Mitsu
    Gaya Ethaniel: Dao - are you posting the log?
    Dao Yheng: sure, np
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm happy to do it if not.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Alright, thanks!
    Dao Yheng: oh, unless you're staying :)
    Gaya Ethaniel is Offline
    Calvino Rabeni: You know, if it weren't for Lee Harvey Oswald, we would be saying "Boston, We have a Problem"

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