2010.09.02 - Prajna

Dao Yheng: Hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :) Hi Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao and Eliza :)
Dao Yheng: Hi Gaya!
Eliza Madrigal: Just a reminder that I will have to pop out about twenty minutes in, to attend an Open House
Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
Eliza Madrigal: Sorry to leave the log hanging again
Dao Yheng: Back to school :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Yakuzza Lethecus is Offline
Gaya Ethaniel: np :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Heloise :)
Dao Yheng: I could take care of it for a while if you like Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: I think aside from these events occasionally it should be fine
Eliza Madrigal: but thank you for offering :)
Dao Yheng: You've been posting for us for a while now
Dao Yheng: ok, np!
Dao Yheng: Hi H!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Heloise :)
Heloise Toussaint: Hello
Eliza Madrigal: brb... have to read rest of reports...
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... did I forget sending out notices yesterday?
Gaya Ethaniel checks her alarms ...
Mitsu Ishii is Online
Dao Yheng: Gaya, I liked your report again this week -- short and sweet and to the point
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :) Just reading yours now :)
Yakuzza Lethecus is Online
Gaya Ethaniel: My understanding is very limited still ... I wanted to write them out first before reading Red Pine's commentaries.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
Mitsu Ishii: hello all
Heloise Toussaint: Hiya
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yaku :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Lovely report Gaya, and Dao, I find yours really beautiful... thought provoking as well. Oh Mama! :)
Gaya Ethaniel: mama mia!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya
Dao Yheng: (sorry, work thingy -- brb)
Gaya Ethaniel: Steven mentions that faith [shraddha] leads to wisdom in one of his ethics classes in RL.
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Eliza Madrigal: say more?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... let me check ...
Gaya Ethaniel: "This faith in the Buddhist case goes on immediately to connecting you to a kind of vigorous, deeper investigation, more, more exploration, more probing. So we call that vigour, very. And that vigorous further investigation helps you be more mindful, more aware. And that mindfulness leads to more concentration of focus, and that concentration of focus leads to eventually what they would call wisdom. "
Mitsu Ishii: yes, it's faith not in ideas but faith that it is worth investigating
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, and vigour is a better word than 'energy' to describe the expression of pure motivations...
Mitsu Ishii: or faither that there is something profound to investigate
Gaya Ethaniel: So more investigations, excavations ... to uncover the living beings where wisdom is accessible.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: excavating from the heart?
Gaya Ethaniel: Probably I'm just skimming at this stage though :)
Mitsu Ishii: the heart sutra always struck me as funny in a way because
Mitsu Ishii: Buddhism is one of the only religions with a central text which kind of negates the path itself
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, just relax and enjoy life :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Of course, it's not that simple :P
Eliza Madrigal: What I was struck by in Dao's report, which I'll say here in case it might be picked up on later cause I have to go already, is the connection of heart sutra to Knowing
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to hear more about/of that :)
Eliza Madrigal: :::pulling myself away:::::
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :))
Eliza Madrigal is Offline
Mitsu Ishii: bye
Gaya Ethaniel: I guess there are different ways of knowing presented in the text, through the different aspects of reality ie duality and then through wisdom, which is beyond the form/emptiness.
Mitsu Ishii: Dao do you want to talk more about the relationship to knowing?
Mitsu Ishii: you mentioned in your report
Dao Yheng: Hm, it's a bit hard to say...
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: I guess it's the sense that at some point, normal categories break down -- emptiness isn't different from great knowing isn't different from compassion etc
Dao Yheng: but I guess my own sense of emptiness is that it's a bit of an inbetween step
Dao Yheng: that in some sense, it's not quite exactly co-equal even if it is also exactly what it is...
Dao Yheng: well, I don't know
Dao Yheng: it might not be a distinction that needs to be made
Mitsu Ishii: I think the two different directions are quite crucial
Mitsu Ishii: form -> emptiness, emptiness -> form
Mitsu Ishii: for me, I sort of "got" the first one before the second, the second was a huge leap
Mitsu Ishii: that is to say, it's fairly easy to get a sense that things aren't really the solid things we think they are
Mitsu Ishii: that they're empty somehow
Mitsu Ishii: but what's really beautiful (to me) is that that same empty ground is the basis for all the beauty of life and phenomena
Dao Yheng: yes, that's a helpful way of coming at it, Mitsu
Dao Yheng: thanks for mentioning it
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes this reminds me of Stim's comments on limit.
Gaya Ethaniel: Without limit [form], no potential ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I can't be sure of his exact words though ... ^^;;;
Mitsu Ishii: yes, that's a good point
Mitsu Ishii: limits create value in a way
Mitsu Ishii: meaning
Mitsu Ishii: if we lived forever as individuals, it would destroy life
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes
Gaya Ethaniel: Like having a human life that is fragile and impermanent ....
Mitsu Ishii: (it's interesting that vampires are seen as immortal but also dead)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes
Dao Yheng: sort of the impermanence angle
Gaya Ethaniel: heh :) feel like we are saying same things at the same time.
Mitsu Ishii: I'm curious Yakuzza or Heloise, do you have any thoughts about the Heart Sutra? or anything else that comes to mind?
Mitsu Ishii: or not :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: Maybe we could talk about the Diamond Sutra vs the Heart Sutra, from your comments, Dao
Mitsu Ishii: why was the Diamond Sutra more compelling to you at first
Gaya Ethaniel listens.
Dao Yheng: (sorry, back again)
Gaya Ethaniel: np :)
Dao Yheng: it's hard to say about the diamond sutra -- I first read it only a few years ago
Dao Yheng: whereas I had at least heard the heart sutra almost from the beginning of my investigations
Dao Yheng: so it could have been a matter of timing
Mitsu Ishii: but I do think the diamond sutra and heart sutra have different content
Dao Yheng: somehow, the diamond sutra felt like a bucket of water getting dumped on my head
Mitsu Ishii: the heart sutra is saying really radical things that seem to make no sense on the surface
Mitsu Ishii: so what about the diamond sutra seemed to connect more
Mitsu Ishii: for you
Dao Yheng: the little thing about belief in a self, a person, a life span, etc --
Dao Yheng: it's repeated several times throughout, sort of parallel to gate gate
Dao Yheng: a refrain you could say
Mitsu Ishii: you mean in the heart sutra?
Dao Yheng: that particular refrain struck me
Mitsu Ishii: or in the diamond sutra
Dao Yheng: in the diamond sutra
Mitsu Ishii: can you say more about that?
Dao Yheng: Maybe because it was pointing at something I could very easily recognize in myself -- belief in a self, a person, a living being, a life span
Mitsu Ishii: ah I see
Dao Yheng: whereas form is emptiness, emptiness is form
Dao Yheng: it took me many years to expand out what I could understand emptiness to be
Dao Yheng: (or not to be as the case may be :)
Mitsu Ishii: yes, I think in some ways the Heart Sutra is more abstract
Mitsu Ishii: it's always shocking to me because for me it brings tears to my eyes
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: but to have it in a religious text really affects me
Mitsu Ishii: I think for me what is so moving about it
Mitsu Ishii: is that it is saying "there is no path", it denies itself, it denies in some ways Buddhism itself
Mitsu Ishii: but then it says PRAJNA PARAMITA
Mitsu Ishii: and this moves me because people always want to react to fear and uncertainty by grabbing onto something certain
Mitsu Ishii: and yet this is saying the opposite: that true, unshakable confidence can flow from a source which denies all ordinary notions of certainty
Dao Yheng: we're attracted to the same point, then -- though for me, it's noticing belief in my own ideas that really surprises me :)
Mitsu Ishii: to me that is such a beautiful thing that I can't help but have tears
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: I suppose the difference is that one sutra focuses on specific things that we can be mistaken about
Mitsu Ishii: like ideas about the self and so on
Gaya Ethaniel: When I first read it, what stood out for me was re: hidrance, well still does.
Mitsu Ishii: whereas the Heart Sutra says that even the path itself isn't a solid thing
Mitsu Ishii: even the Eightfold Path, even the Four Noble Truths, etc.
Mitsu Ishii: it says you can't hang your hat on anything at all, even the teachings
Mitsu Ishii: and yet THAT IN ITSELF is the source of abiding prajna paramita
Mitsu Ishii: and it can be vocalized as gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: but if you don't know what the teachings are to begin with... you see my initial dilemma?
Mitsu Ishii: and that brings everything back in. it's not a denial of anything at all, it includes everything
Mitsu Ishii: yes, right
Mitsu Ishii: that's true
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I think it may at least help with the mind that is heavily focused on concepts.
Gaya Ethaniel: Like a koan almost ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Step back from what words mean in narrow sense etc.
Gaya Ethaniel: I guess that's the radical part :)
Dao Yheng: Gaya, could you say more about "When I first read it, what stood out for me was re: hidrance, well still does."?
Gaya Ethaniel: heh :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well ordinary mind is very quick to judge ... things that appear to be obstacles can turn out not to be but that mind wants to make things solid.
Gaya Ethaniel: Fear and suffering comes from this tendency I think.
Gaya Ethaniel: The mind that sees someone as enemy etc. divisive thinking ... all of those stuff that ordinary mind does.
Dao Yheng: Hmm, yes -- any kind of characterization at all, in a sense
Gaya Ethaniel: It's useful, we need it but maybe not for everything :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Re: your question Dao ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Why is the mind consciousness considered the sixth a sense gate?
Gaya Ethaniel: This one ...
Gaya Ethaniel: That's the ordinary cognition part of the mind?
Dao Yheng: I assume so, yes
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Gaya Ethaniel: Like a dream architect :)
Dao Yheng: how so?
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... :) well the dreaming mind is an obvous example I think.
Mitsu Ishii: it's a traditional notion in Buddhism
Mitsu Ishii: Stim talked about it once
Mitsu Ishii: the mind is another sense in a way
Gaya Ethaniel: What's 'it'?
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Gaya Ethaniel: It makes sense to me, yes.
Dao Yheng: Maybe you'll remind me of it Mits :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Also boundary between mind and other things aren't clear cut anyway.
Dao Yheng: boundary between mind and other senses isn't so clear to me either
Mitsu Ishii: well in a way the mind is feeding itself with sensations that sort of bounce off of earlier thoughts and so on
Mitsu Ishii: so it takes into account the explicit way the mind generates feedback into itself
Dao Yheng: so, to me, the mind creates sense impressions and vice versa --
Gaya Ethaniel: A few minutes left now ...
Mitsu Ishii: so shal we agree to talk about this one more week? I know Zen wanted to talk about it :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ok :)
Dao Yheng: sounds good
Dao Yheng: I downloaded Red Pine's book on my kindle!
Gaya Ethaniel: Also we are going to resume the weekly homework meeting from this Sunday.
Gaya Ethaniel: It will be in voice and hope you can all attend.
Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's 9 am SLT?
Dao Yheng: Will you be able to attend then, Heloise?
Gaya Ethaniel: I will attach landmarkd for it in a group notice.
Heloise Toussaint: What time is that GMT?
Gaya Ethaniel: 5 pm
Gaya Ethaniel: 6 pm in Germany for Yaku ...
Heloise Toussaint: Just checking my calendar
Heloise Toussaint: I'm busy this sunday
Gaya Ethaniel: Actually I can't make it either ...
Gaya Ethaniel: But others can meet up :)
Dao Yheng: Is there another time that is better for everyone? or are these one time things?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well Heloise and I have an event to attend :P
Dao Yheng: OK, so we'll see you week after next then :)
Gaya Ethaniel: But is the time usually ok for you Heloise?
Heloise Toussaint: Yes generally, although Sundays can be busy as tend to travel on weekends to see family etc
Heloise Toussaint: so bit tricky for next month
Gaya Ethaniel: Well make it when you can :)
Heloise Toussaint: OK cool
Dao Yheng: OK, thanks everyone!
Dao Yheng: nice to see everyone!
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you, see you soon :)
Heloise Toussaint: Thank you