2010.08.05 - Kshanti Paramita II [Patience]

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    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
    Dao Yheng: hi gaya!
    Dao Yheng: nice to be back in our old digs
    Gaya Ethaniel: :D
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tim :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are you Dao?
    Dao Yheng: Hi Timbo!
    Timbo Quan: Hello Gaya Hi Dao
    Timbo Quan: Didn't realise this place is up in the air ....
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm it is :)
    Timbo Quan: interesting
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: is it? raised on a platform?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No like a skybox, it's floating in the air.
    Timbo Quan: rather fairly high up - never looked over the edge before
    Gaya Ethaniel: 250m high ... it says.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello maria24 :)
    Dao Yheng: oh, funny! Is that why you can see the sea underneath when everything is first rendering?
    Timbo Quan: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't see the sea ... not sure.
    Gaya Ethaniel points to her new T-shirt.
    Dao Yheng: I was going to ask...
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello again maria24 :)
    maria24 Murfin: hi gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have you been here before maria?
    maria24 Murfin: yes is there a mtg here at 2pm slt
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, it will start shortly. The meeting is open for anyone to join. For more information, please see http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello MItsu :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please feel free to take a seat if you'd like maria.
    Timbo Quan: hello Mitsu
    Mitsu Ishii: hello
    Dao Yheng: thanks!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: So patience has been good to you, Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... thinks.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Patience is good ... :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: You mean if I have been patient?
    Dao Yheng: If you've enjoyed working with patience as homework
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it is a good topic for me.
    Gaya Ethaniel: How about you?
    Dao Yheng: to be honest, I find that I tend to turn it into something else
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Dao Yheng: acceptance, compassion, etc
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well patience requires all those qualities I think ...
    Dao Yheng: it's been a little difficult to stay with patience as such
    Gaya Ethaniel: If patience is approached from anger ... compassion is needed.
    Gaya Ethaniel: To be patient with someone, sometimes one needs to accept and also trust ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's a complex topic I think.
    Dao Yheng: yes, I think so too
    Mitsu Ishii: Zen's interpretation of patience seemed to focus on time, i.e., waiting
    Dao Yheng: there's the issue of what one is being patient with, too...
    Dao Yheng: oh, yes, that was an illuminating aspect of his report, I thought
    Mitsu Ishii: but the paramita has more to do with acceptance of things like people being angry or attacking you etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Eliza also associated patience with time.
    Mitsu Ishii: i.e., such as the Tibetans being patient with the Chinese
    Dao Yheng: You don't think attitudes about time are related?
    Dao Yheng: to me, that sense of "this needs to be corrected" definitely plays out in time
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, I think time is related
    Mitsu Ishii: but it isn't just patience as in waiting for something to happen in the future
    Dao Yheng: oh I see what you mean
    Mitsu Ishii: the word "patience" might not be quite the right translation
    Gaya Ethaniel: I saw a Dalai Lama's quote re: patience, being able to stand firm under fear.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So impatience -> sense of self under threat?
    Dao Yheng: a sense of confidence too, then
    Gaya Ethaniel: How do you see this?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes confidence and trust ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Dao Yheng: Hi Zen, good to see you again!
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will make a notecard of what we've said Zen.
    Timbo Quan: hello Zen
    Mitsu Ishii: hi Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi Gaya, Mitsu, Timbo, Dao
    maria24 Murfin: sorry i crashed
    Zen Arado: amria
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb maria
    maria24 Murfin: ty
    Zen Arado: Maria sorry
    maria24 Murfin: hi zen
    Zen Arado: ty Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    maria24 Murfin: ty gaya for the nc
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: confidence and trust that there is something already supportive about the situation even in the worst circumstances
    Gaya Ethaniel: Then natural patience ...
    Dao Yheng: yes -- patience in the sense that things can be quite dire and may never be "fixed"
    Zen Arado: suggests being contented with the way things are
    Gaya Ethaniel: This is why I thought wisdom is also related to patience.
    Zen Arado: then you don't need patience
    maria24 Murfin: would you say patience is natural or is it something thatis learned
    Zen Arado: children don't have much patience :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I thought about that :) Crouching in the bush ... ^^;;;
    Dao Yheng: maybe patience is the way wisdom is expressed?
    Mitsu Ishii: I think patience is not quite exactly the same as being contented with the way things are
    Mitsu Ishii: for example, let's say the way things are includes someone causing great suffering to others
    Mitsu Ishii: the point of the paramita is not that we sit back and don't think there's anything wrong, that there's nothing that deserves to be corrected or changed
    Mitsu Ishii: but that we accept that things are the way they are, even if we need to move to correct them
    Zen Arado: but, sometimes, like the Dalai Lama and China situation, we have to sit back
    Mitsu Ishii: even there, the Dalai Lama makes strenuous efforts constantly with the Chinese.
    Mitsu Ishii: there's a big difference between acceptance and passivity
    Zen Arado: maybe we need patience to wait for the right time to act
    Mitsu Ishii: one can act with patience or act without it
    Mitsu Ishii: or not act with patience or not act without it
    Zen Arado: acceptance can include action though
    Mitsu Ishii: exactly
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think when time factor is involved, practical level of patience helps especially when situations can cause strong reactions.
    Zen Arado: I seem to find it impossible to disconnect the time factor from patience
    Zen Arado: 'waiting patiently' for something
    Gaya Ethaniel: Also when a situation is quite stuck, I may decide to bite my tougue in order not to make the situation worse.
    Dao Yheng: what happens if you strike the waiting part from patience, though?
    Mitsu Ishii: there's a quality of patience which is right here
    Gaya Ethaniel: idk ... I enjoy waiting, I don't normally see as 'waiting'.
    Mitsu Ishii: something happens, that is negative, and we can be reactive to it or we can appreciate the larger context
    Zen Arado: it seems to be future oriented though?
    Mitsu Ishii: that's sort of "instant patience"
    Zen Arado: hmmm yes
    Zen Arado: but putting off doing something to a later time?
    Dao Yheng: :) I guess it matters what we're being patient with
    maria24 Murfin: i looked up one definition and it said good-natured tolerance of delay or incompetence so wouldnt the word delay involve the time element
    Zen Arado: should forget the 'doing' part maybe ?
    Mitsu Ishii: it doesn't have to be about time at all
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Mitsu, that's why I did wonder if patience in this context can be developed directly.
    Mitsu Ishii: for example, something goes wrong and you get upset with whatever it is
    Mitsu Ishii: like a flat tire
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: On the way to the cinema?
    Mitsu Ishii: I was in India and it's quite a difficult place
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh
    Mitsu Ishii: very strange place
    Mitsu Ishii: but anyway, on my way to the airport to leave, I had called a taxi
    Mitsu Ishii: the taxi arrived on time and everything was fine
    Mitsu Ishii: it was an expensive (for India) taxi service
    Mitsu Ishii: but as we were headed to the airport, the taxi got a flat
    Mitsu Ishii: so we pulled over
    Mitsu Ishii: and the taxi driver got out and I could see he was getting out the jack
    Mitsu Ishii: he didn't say anything. In India there are big class differences
    Mitsu Ishii: so I think he was worried I was going to get irritated at him or yell
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... he saw you as an upper class person even if you are a foreigner?
    Mitsu Ishii: but I just got out and started to help him change the tire
    Mitsu Ishii: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: well most foreigners are upper class by Indian standards
    Mitsu Ishii: he was a little weirded out that I was helping him but he accepted it because he knew we could change it faster
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok interesting ...
    Mitsu Ishii: so we change the tire and we get back in and drive to the airport
    Mitsu Ishii: at the end he starts to apologize profusely
    Mitsu Ishii: seeming a bit nervous
    Mitsu Ishii: and I just told him it was fine and things like that happen
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tronky :)
    Zen Arado: brb
    Mitsu Ishii: so he was SO relieved
    Tronky Niki: hello
    Mitsu Ishii: and he made small talk after that
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will IM Tronky with an introduction ...
    Mitsu Ishii: but I was thinking that in India there are many situations of conflict and strife
    Mitsu Ishii: where simply being more accepting of a situation as it is would help immensely, without being resigned to it
    Mitsu Ishii: that is, we needed to change the tire, we leapt into action, together
    Mitsu Ishii: but at the same time, no rancor or anger or impatience..
    Mitsu Ishii: just calmly working with the situation as it is
    Mitsu Ishii: then we can bridge the gap between classes and between foreigners and locals and so on
    Mitsu Ishii: anyway that's my little story
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello varan024 :) I will IM you to introduce our group.
    varan024 Aristocrat: ok
    varan024 Aristocrat: hi for all
    varan024 Aristocrat: i am from serbia
    Mitsu Ishii: I think of patience as a paramita as more about how one responds to situations
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why don't you grab a seat ... varan.
    Mitsu Ishii: you're in a hurry, or you are frustrated with a broken machine or whatever
    Mitsu Ishii: or someone is attacking you and so on
    varan024 Aristocrat: i dont set when smoke
    Mitsu Ishii: how do you respond to that situation now
    Zen Arado: ha ha just had a fire alarm in my block of apartments
    Mitsu Ishii: haha
    Dao Yheng: :)))
    Zen Arado: woman next door was smoking
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well my experience of showing acceptance is that most of the time I get a bad service.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... :)
    Zen Arado: is patience related to tolerance then?
    Zen Arado: are they the same?
    Gaya Ethaniel: You know I find tolerance somewhat problematic.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It implies inequality.
    Zen Arado: if you tolerate a situation it seems like patience?
    Zen Arado: true Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: By a long thread, this I think relates to patience being patchy sometimes.
    Zen Arado: does patience imply inequality too?
    Zen Arado: inequality in Mitsu's story
    Zen Arado: sorry I'm going off into word definitions
    Gaya Ethaniel: Someone once told me how he can't teach his wife anything while he was very well liked by his students.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So my thoughts would be ... why patient with his students while not with his wife?
    Zen Arado: good point Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: So being impatient is a shade of anger I think.
    Dao Yheng: :) wives are a tough audience
    Gaya Ethaniel: And sometimes we refrain from being angry at some people ... while not others.
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Zen Arado: harder to be patient with those closer to you isn't it?
    Zen Arado: why is that?
    Dao Yheng: I think that is a traditional understanding of patience -- it is an alternative to anger
    Mitsu Ishii: wives don't like to be taught things by husbands
    Gaya Ethaniel: So the patchy quality here points to ... perhaps contrived patience rather than spontaneous expressions.
    Mitsu Ishii: that is my experience :)
    Dao Yheng: It could just be that wives are holding their husbands to a higher standard
    Timbo Quan: wives rarely exhibit patience would be my experience
    Zen Arado: maybe patience is always contrived
    Dao Yheng: and that husbands should be more patient about that :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes expectation ...
    Zen Arado: requires effort...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think that's the case always Zen.
    Zen Arado: you might not notice it then?
    Dao Yheng: although I guess there's no reason to be prejudiced against effort either
    Gaya Ethaniel: I wouldn't say Mitsu's example is born out of efforts.
    Zen Arado: we always want people to notice our patience
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that's what I meant by different levels.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Refraining oneself from reacting requires efforts for example.
    Gaya Ethaniel: And of course catching it before ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: See? Being patience isn't so straight forward :)
    Zen Arado: but you could say Mitsu's action had some impatience in it too
    Zen Arado: he wanted to get to the airport faster
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well it was rather a shared intention?
    Gaya Ethaniel: With the driver?
    Zen Arado: speed things up
    Zen Arado: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Shared aim I mean ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: A shared aim with the driver rather than impatience ... sorry I'm a bit tired here.
    Dao Yheng: Hmm, noticing that the next paramita is "Joyous effort" / vigor, something like that
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is it? :)
    Zen Arado: think I'm getting too philosophical and too much into concepts
    Dao Yheng: maybe Zen is keying in on the natural next step with all this?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes perhaps :)
    Zen Arado: no I wasn't :)
    Mitsu Ishii: but this is what I mean: patience doesn't mean not doing things to make things go faster :)
    Dao Yheng: you're modest, Zen!
    Zen Arado: but maybe I should :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: for example, you might want to accelerate the end of slavery
    Mitsu Ishii: or the end of poverty
    Mitsu Ishii: or the end of the subjugation of women
    Gaya Ethaniel: But driving such an aim from anger isn't sustainable.
    Mitsu Ishii: but you can do that in a patient or an impatient way
    Gaya Ethaniel: Anger can give a boost of energy - can be addictive.
    Zen Arado: impatience can be a good motivator
    Gaya Ethaniel: But I think genuine patience can give much more and less harmful ... :)
    Zen Arado: impatient wqith slavery?
    Zen Arado: patience could prolong bad things
    Dao Yheng: yes, it does feel like there is a way to be patient with impatience too
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: I'm trying to distinguish between changing things or acting to change things
    Dao Yheng: recognize impatience's strengths
    Mitsu Ishii: and doing so in a way which is contrary to the paramita of patience
    Mitsu Ishii: wanting to change something isn't the same as being impatient with it
    Zen Arado: sometimes we change things for the worse
    Gaya Ethaniel: True, one can get angry about stuff but do nothing.
    Mitsu Ishii: if a surgeon is operating on you
    Mitsu Ishii: you certainly don't want him to be operating "impatiently"
    Zen Arado: the world is so complex - how do we know the right action?
    Mitsu Ishii: even if the surgeon is trying to change something in you physically
    Mitsu Ishii: that I think is the point of practice, even doing things like taiji and qi gong
    Dao Yheng: I think we can know what might be the right way of acting, even if we don't know how we're going to get to a specific end
    Mitsu Ishii: you can learn to feel things in a better way
    Zen Arado: we have to act anyway
    Mitsu Ishii: to be more in accord with Tao as the Taoists would say
    Mitsu Ishii: it's not necessarily a matter of knowing intellectually
    Dao Yheng: right, so even being impatient with slavery, it doesn't mean now we go around stomping on people
    Gaya Ethaniel: ack
    Zen Arado: learn to be more attuned to what might be a better way
    Mitsu Ishii: we seem to be at the end of our session
    Mitsu Ishii: what is next week's topic?
    Mitsu Ishii: virya?
    Mitsu Ishii: Vīrya pāramitā : energy, diligence, vigor, effort
    Dao Yheng: we could consider patience and virya together, or did we just do that?
    Mitsu Ishii: let's do virya
    Mitsu Ishii: perhaps we should try to reminds some folks more directly
    Gaya Ethaniel: Vīrya (Sanskrit; Pāli: viriya; Tibetan: brtson-'grus) is "effort," "vigor," "diligence," "zeal," or "energy."
    Dao Yheng: ok, sounds good
    Mitsu Ishii: that we are starting up again, like Calvino and Agatha
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I have ...
    Mitsu Ishii: ok cool
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think I did ... at PaB.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will send out a notice the day before anyway. They should have received Kira notices as well.
    Dao Yheng: sounds good
    Zen Arado: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: okay, see you guys next week then!
    Dao Yheng: It's lovely to see you all again!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Vic. You're too late, we have finished our meeting :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
    Timbo Quan: Bye all - have good week!
    Dao Yheng: Bye all!
    Zen Arado: yes it it's good to be back
    maria24 Murfin: ok ty
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will post the log.
    maria24 Murfin: bye for now

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