2010.07.01 - Kshanti Paramita I

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    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Agatha :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I seem to be early tonight
    Gaya Ethaniel: Very eager aren't you?
    Agatha Macbeth: Sometimes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Nice pink hair
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :)
    Agatha Macbeth grins
    x98x Hax: beep beep
    Timbo Quan: Hello all
    Agatha Macbeth: Beep beep :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Tim :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Heloise, Tim and x98x :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Dao, Heloise
    Heloise Toussaint: Hi
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
    Timbo Quan: Hi Dao
    Timbo Quan: Hi Heloise
    Heloise Toussaint: Hi Timbo
    Dao Yheng: Hi Gaya, Heloise, Agatha, Timbo!
    Dao Yheng: Heloise, I like your dress -- the one I started with :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes, didn't think they made them any more
    Dao Yheng: Hi Mitsu, Hi Calvino
    Heloise Toussaint: Yes, I haven't had a play with clothes yet really, and I quite like it!
    Mitsu Ishii: hello all
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Mitsu, Cal
    Timbo Quan: Hi Mitsu
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino and Mitsu :)
    Timbo Quan: Hi Calvino
    Dao Yheng: I think the first time I tried to put on different clothes, I ended up putting on the bilboard for it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Eek
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: yeah I've worn multiple billboards in second life
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe the billboard looked better! :p
    Dao Yheng: back to the colorform days!
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Coloform?
    Agatha Macbeth: A typo for chloroform :)
    Dao Yheng: it was an old toy for kids -- basically like paper cut out dolls, but little plastic flatland dresses, etc
    Gaya Ethaniel Googles chloroform ...
    Mitsu Ishii: colorforms
    Agatha Macbeth: (It just knocks me out)
    Mitsu Ishii: not chloroform
    Agatha Macbeth: ??
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorforms
    Gaya Ethaniel: This?
    Agatha Macbeth: Chlorofoam?
    Mitsu Ishii: forms
    Mitsu Ishii: colorforms, yes
    Dao Yheng: you found it gaya!
    Agatha Macbeth: Chlorophyll
    Agatha Macbeth: Osmosis
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I meant photosynthesis not osmosis
    Agatha Macbeth always was crap at biology
    Heloise Toussaint: Fuzzy felt?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice ... I'd enjoy that toy.
    Agatha Macbeth: Fuzzy felt who ?
    Agatha Macbeth: And did fuzzy enjoy it?
    Heloise Toussaint: lol
    Dao Yheng: so gaya, I'm curious -- why is patience your favorite paramita? (aside from waiting for us to stop kidding around today :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Now I'm lost ... yeah let's talk about patience.
    Agatha Macbeth is impatient to find out
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well because I'm incredibly impatient!
    Agatha Macbeth: Same here
    Agatha Macbeth: <- Tiger
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders about the relationship between patience and entertainment
    Agatha Macbeth ponders
    Gaya Ethaniel: So learning about patience has always been important.
    Calvino Rabeni: Any learning experiences to share?
    Mitsu Ishii: so in what way do you experience impatience Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well you know keeping a lid on doesn't work :P
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Or from the other side - what are some memorable experiences of being patient?
    Gaya Ethaniel: btw I am still a bit hazy with this cold ... so bit slow.
    Dao Yheng: Hmm, interesting question, Calvino (and no problem Gaya)
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Agatha Macbeth gives Gaya some Lemsip
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I was exploring working with breathing when feeling impatient last year with Steven here.
    Agatha Macbeth: Hey Zen :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty Agatha :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: So I'd say I see physical signs most easily.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Tension ... shallow breathing and so on.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Does this answer your question Mitsu?
    Mitsu Ishii: but there are many situations
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm
    Mitsu Ishii: for example: do you mean waiting for something, or do you mean when you feel upset about something and want it to change or be resolved?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, as per my report wanting situations to be otherwise is a good example yes.
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Culture plays a big part... not surprisingly
    Mitsu Ishii: In Japan there is a common phrase "shoganai" or "shikataganai" I wonder if there is a similar concept in Korea
    Zen Arado: that's the biggie for us isn't it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... I forgot about bringing attention to breathing in those situations recently ... good that I remembered the exercise today.
    Dao Yheng: not to divert, but counting breaths is an interesting example -- I've also noticed a kind of slight edge of impatience in the body that can turn into something more still and clear
    Zen Arado: not accepting things the way they are if we can't change them
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Dao, I guess it's a similar practice.
    Dao Yheng: that physical change isn't necessarily an attitude adjustment
    Calvino Rabeni: Anything can be changed, if only in awareness ...
    Dao Yheng: although attitude does seem to change as well!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: it gets us out of the mind anyway Dao?
    Zen Arado: the mind magnifies
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yep shioganai equivalent exists in Korean :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Impatient with the mind?
    Dao Yheng: I'm not sure which comes first, in other words -- physical adjustment or "mind" adjustment
    Mitsu Ishii: is it as universal a thing in Korean culture. I know in my family the shoganai attitude was omnipresent :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :D
    Zen Arado: the mind churns out the angry thoughts
    Calvino Rabeni: Can someone paraphrase that shoganai?
    Zen Arado: angry reactions
    Mitsu Ishii: shoganai basically means something like "que sera sera"
    Zen Arado: ah ok
    Calvino Rabeni: ah, thanks
    Mitsu Ishii: or "well, what can you do, that's just the way it is"
    Mitsu Ishii: "might as well accept it since there's nothing you can do for now"
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Dao Yheng: very much like a famous quote from shantideva too --
    Zen Arado: but our culture says 'you must DO something'
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks ...
    Heloise Toussaint: In French there's the concept of 'laisse tomber' or 'let it go'
    Dao Yheng: (paraphrasing) why get angry about something which can be remedied, and what good does it do to get angry about something which cannot?
    Mitsu Ishii: it can be overdone in Japanese culture where they'll accept some things they shouldn't accept
    Heloise Toussaint: I found that very helpful
    Calvino Rabeni: the culture also provides many small ways to have your way with your attention
    Mitsu Ishii: but overall, it tends to be about accepting things that can't be helped
    Calvino Rabeni: entertainments, distractions on command
    Mitsu Ishii: I remember a story about that
    Calvino Rabeni: to placate the desire for constant control
    Mitsu Ishii: During the firebombing of Tokyo
    Mitsu Ishii: which was this horrific thing where hundreds of thousands were killed in the firebombs
    Agatha Macbeth: :(
    Mitsu Ishii: I recall reading a story about a European who was in Tokyo
    Mitsu Ishii: and he was overhearing two Japanese women looking out at the burning city
    Mitsu Ishii: and of course they are fully aware of the carnage
    Mitsu Ishii: but one of them says to the other "kirei, na?"
    Mitsu Ishii: which means "it's pretty, isn't it?"
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Mitsu Ishii: which is to say, there's nothing they can do about it, so might as well accept it and see the beauty even in death
    Dao Yheng: it is an interesting tension -- between acceptance and sort of accepting too much
    Zen Arado: yes - I always felt a bit uneasy with the passivity of that in Zen
    Zen Arado: but acceptance doesn't rule out action as well
    Dao Yheng: for me, an interesting angle has been, can it be possible to see the beauty even while acknowleging that on some level, it needs to be addressed?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, persistence [not insistence] is a good quality.
    Zen Arado: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: there has to be incisive action when necessary too, of course
    Mitsu Ishii: it's like the serenity prayer
    Zen Arado: acceptance without action = resignation?
    Mitsu Ishii: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. "
    Zen Arado: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think acceptance from understanding is more helpful than acceptance because there is nothing one can do.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Shantideva for example talks about how 'harmful' people are not masters of themselves.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Seeing this brings acceptance of the situation more naturally.
    Dao Yheng: in this sense, acceptance is compassion rather than "making do"?
    Zen Arado: it's funny but a woman in our meditation group asked us about how to deal with her anger. But when we offered suggestions she said she still wanted to feel and act out the anger
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think many things come into acceptance ... yes Dao.
    Agatha Macbeth smiles @ Zen
    Mitsu Ishii: well, understanding is often required before one can see there is nothing one can do.
    Zen Arado: she said it was like grief and should be allowed to be expressed
    Zen Arado: otherwise it would fester
    Mitsu Ishii: well, there are many ways to express anger
    Mitsu Ishii: there's a clear, incisive, direct anger
    Dao Yheng: another tricky balance -- knowing the difference between compassion for anger and indulgence of it
    Gaya Ethaniel: I guess I was talking more about empathic understanding ...
    Mitsu Ishii: which goes straight to the point without rancor or malice, simply energy like a lightning bolt
    Zen Arado: she thinks venting the anger is best
    Mitsu Ishii: but most of the time people express anger in this smouldering way
    Mitsu Ishii: which is really damaging and simply makes the whole situation far worse
    Zen Arado: I remember Thich Nhat Hanh saying that hitting a pillow or something to vent anger just rehearses it
    Heloise Toussaint: I’ve heard that depression can be caused by anger not expressed but turned inwards
    Dao Yheng: I've heard that too, heloise, and find it quite true
    Zen Arado: yes Heloise
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Zen Arado: we get angry at ourselves, beat ourselves up
    Calvino Rabeni: Another element to that - what's the anger? Often, at missing out on some positive experience
    Mitsu Ishii: Anger is a huge subject in samurai culture
    Calvino Rabeni: That is, the anger is secondary to, maybe a reaction to, sadness
    Mitsu Ishii: it's like the worst sin of all is not sexual or indulgence, but rather anger breaking out inappropriately
    Zen Arado: there's a lot of energy there that could be used creatively
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well one wants to develop patience ...
    Mitsu Ishii: but anger comes often from a situation where there is actually something wrong that should be addressed
    Calvino Rabeni: @zen, then the anger is a positive energy
    Calvino Rabeni: relative to the resignation
    Zen Arado: yes agree Cal
    Mitsu Ishii: if you can see the whole situation and act in a broad way that isn't too selfish
    Mitsu Ishii: then the anger can be positive and even necessary
    Heloise Toussaint: I've also heard that anger results when your values are broken, ie something happens which doesn't agree with the way you think things should be
    Zen Arado: use it’s energy positively
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Mitsu, it's good to attend to the messages at early stages.
    Zen Arado: like Martin Luther King’s anger at racism
    Zen Arado: channelled
    Gaya Ethaniel: Many people aren't good at noticing soft voices ... at early stages.
    Dao Yheng: anger does seem to arise in a flash, but the seeds can be traced back --
    Agatha Macbeth: True Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Dao Yheng: oh, yes, gaya :)
    Zen Arado: though that's about how we deal with anger in others?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Patience must also be an antidote for those seeds.
    Dao Yheng: attention and care as well
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes :)
    Dao Yheng: even after getting angry!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Do you all find it easy to be patient?
    Zen Arado: patience with ourselves too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Especially after getting angry :)
    Zen Arado: I get impatient with myself
    Heloise Toussaint: As I've got older I've found it easier
    Agatha Macbeth: I agree
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Heloise, we can't be bothered anymore :P
    Agatha Macbeth: Ha
    Mitsu Ishii: I actually think often anger comes out more damaging because the person doesn't feel authorized to be angry
    Heloise Toussaint: I was just about to say things don't bother me so much
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: if you are angry in a judicious manner, then you can be angry in a way which is more measured. ironically it's insecurity I think that distorts it
    Calvino Rabeni: I learned a lot about patience by traveling and wandering when I was young
    Gaya Ethaniel: Do you find yourself more patient with others then Zen?
    Zen Arado: yes I think so
    Zen Arado: you tell me :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: heh :)
    Zen Arado: he asked impatiently :)
    Agatha Macbeth grins
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will do intro to koe ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: in IM
    Zen Arado: yes old age breeds patience I think
    Calvino Rabeni: Also learned some patience by misogi practice - have you done that, Mitsu?
    Agatha Macbeth: And other things Zen ;-)
    Zen Arado: we see thew futility of anger so many times
    Zen Arado: :)
    Dao Yheng: what is misogi, Calvino?
    Zen Arado: reminds me of an old song:)
    Mitsu Ishii: I never did misogi but I did something like that with a soccer field... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a variety of shinto practices done in Japan
    Zen Arado: yes?
    Dao Yheng: oh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogi
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke bathing in the lake or river on new years day, intense physical chanting, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Meant to be transformative and involve concentration of will
    Calvino Rabeni: and maybe, submission to some nature forces, if I guess right
    Calvino Rabeni: I say guess, buecause it wasn't really explained :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Just do ...
    Dao Yheng: waterfall practice
    Zen Arado: more able to bear suffering without complaining ?
    Calvino Rabeni: that too
    Dao Yheng: and also the passage of time
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, I think I told this story before at WoK, but I once was asked by my martial arts instructor to jump around a soccer field holding a wooden sword from a crouching position, like a frog
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe a dose of mind over matter ?
    Calvino Rabeni: And yes, time was a big part of the experience
    Mitsu Ishii: it was by far the most excruciating pain I had ever experienced
    Mitsu Ishii: and it went on and on and on and on and on and on
    Mitsu Ishii: but I found what worked
    Calvino Rabeni: I can relate to that "on and on ...." part :)
    Mitsu Ishii: was to jump outside of time-mind
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why do you think getting older helps one to be more patient?
    Mitsu Ishii: but just feel the pain in the present moment
    Mitsu Ishii: and not think of the long expanse of time in front of me with the suffering
    Calvino Rabeni: Lots of reasons come to mind Gaya
    Calvino Rabeni: I was also a ultramarathon runner
    Gaya Ethaniel: Getting older -> wiser?
    Calvino Rabeni: same thing about time ....
    Heloise Toussaint: In my experience, I realise you can't change people, so you just accept them as they are rather than getting impatient with them
    Calvino Rabeni: it's not over, till it is over
    Zen Arado: yes - so many experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: About age, a breadth of experience leads to non-attachment to particular aspects of needing things to be a certain way
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Heloise but at the same time, one doesn't want to fix someone with a label ...
    Zen Arado: learning experiences
    Timbo Quan: getting older -> know whats important & whats not or at least a better idea
    Zen Arado: a longer perspective
    Heloise Toussaint: But what I mean is not fixing someone with a label and expecting them to be a certain way?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... that's a big topic ...
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes we can easily just attach a label on a person then move on ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yep nasty, yep ok ... etc
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Dao Yheng: before we run out of time, I wanted to mention that Mitsu and I will be away for a couple weeks in July, and Eliza will be spotty as well -- shall we have a summer break until August?
    Gaya Ethaniel: That sounds good to me ... I need a break.
    Zen Arado: sure ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: Can we come back to patience in August?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes, but we need to be patient ;-)
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Zen Arado: that's along time :)
    Agatha Macbeth: We need to be VERY patient then...
    Calvino Rabeni: We should be quite patient by then :)
    Dao Yheng: we'll think of Calvino and Mitsu on their marathons ...
    Mitsu Ishii: we will have a summer recess until August 5
    Zen Arado: what marathons?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Agatha Macbeth rings her calendar
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
    Heloise Toussaint: thank you
    Agatha Macbeth: Ty Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will post the log for today.
    Timbo Quan: ok have a good summer!
    Zen Arado: thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun!
    Agatha Macbeth: Enjoy the hols!
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now
    Zen Arado: here comes summer :)
    Dao Yheng: thanks all!
    Mitsu Ishii: bye all
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Dao Yheng: yahoo!
    Heloise Toussaint: Have a good summer and see you later

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