2010.06.24 - Sila Paramita (2)

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    Mitsu Ishii: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Quiet today so far
    Mitsu Ishii: Sue might be in a meeting at work... I'm not sure
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Eliza Madrigal: And Gaya has a cold :(
    Mitsu Ishii: I see Calvino and Yakuzza are online
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: How is your phone? :)
    Mitsu Ishii: I barely had a chance to use it yet :)
    Mitsu Ishii: I slept until 3pm new york time
    Eliza Madrigal: That sounds like your taste of Harry Potter type madness
    Eliza Madrigal: writ larger even perhaps :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, my favorite Chatterbox :)
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Calvino Rabeni: Did you know the meaning of "Eliza" in Basque?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, no. Is it interesting?
    Mitsu Ishii: Gaya is sick and Dao is in a meeting I think
    Mitsu Ishii: so we have a very cozy group today
    Calvino Rabeni: "Church" - I would like that fine, were I an "eliza"
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting! I had no idea :) I do know that 'beth' means "house"
    Sartre Placebo: hey everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen may be here a little late, as he's mentioned
    Mitsu Ishii: hello Sartre
    Sartre Placebo: yaku here
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sartre :)
    Mitsu Ishii: Yakuzza said he will come late as well.
    Eliza Madrigal practices her french pronunciation
    Mitsu Ishii: oh I see, this is one of your alts
    Sartre Placebo: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: does it mean that Sartre is a placebo?
    Mitsu Ishii: haha
    Sartre Placebo: of course :)
    Mitsu Ishii: so Eliza since the paramitas were your idea for a topic
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Mitsu Ishii: perhaps you can speak on the topic since you missed last week
    Eliza Madrigal: and I do apologize for absences... there will be another next week =/
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, I've been doing my homework though, and considering the topic all during the week...
    Eliza Madrigal: I find it illuminating
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza, Mitsu, Cal, Sartre
    Sartre Placebo: hey zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Just thinking about the paramitas causes me to look for expressions and experiences ...
    Mitsu Ishii: what do you mean by expressions and experiences
    Eliza Madrigal: to note and appreciate the various goodnesses at play in the world
    Eliza Madrigal: I can remember a time when I would notice a lack of smiling from people on the streets, etc. Now I seem to notice the opposite more often
    Eliza Madrigal: not that there is any difference in amount probably...
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Calvino Rabeni: except ... there is, Eliza, caused by you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: in a flick of an eye
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: anyway, that's my first observation. I tend to think that everyone wants to do well, and to give, to do good work...
    Zen Arado: because you smile more probably Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal does smile a lot... like a deer in the headlights
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Zen Arado: it's catching
    Zen Arado: you are more aware of yourself
    Eliza Madrigal: the little things matter much more than we realize I think...
    Zen Arado: so you notice your moods
    Zen Arado: many others are more unconscious
    Zen Arado: lost in their thoughts
    Eliza Madrigal nods... and when you are aware of some innate goodness in others, you can see it...
    Eliza Madrigal: whereas I think before these kinds of studies and contemplations one waits to see, first
    Eliza Madrigal: classic kind of flip perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Zen Arado: sila doesn't make us as self righteous as Christians pehaps?
    Mitsu Ishii: but how do you see this specifically relating to paramitas?
    Eliza Madrigal: I see the paramitas as enlightened qualities....
    Eliza Madrigal: and every person as having buddha nature... so then maybe there is something obscuring...
    Eliza Madrigal: but not 'absent'
    Eliza Madrigal: so I think for instance, ethics is about drawing that out, in a sense...
    Zen Arado: something to be perfected
    Eliza Madrigal: not willfully.... but just knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, nothing is to be perfected relative to some conceptual standard
    Eliza Madrigal: and about radical personal responsibility
    Calvino Rabeni: just given realization
    Mitsu Ishii: ah so for you sila has to do with drawing out enlightened qualities in others?
    Eliza Madrigal nods... we're responsible for one another
    Calvino Rabeni: radical is a good word for it
    Calvino Rabeni: the deep roots
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I suppose Mitsu
    Eliza Madrigal: but not 'me' drawing out like a 'doing'
    Zen Arado: how you react in a situation is the outcome of your practice
    Zen Arado: especially if you don't have time to think
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, that seems quite often the case!
    Zen Arado: so we are always perfecting ourselves through practice
    Eliza Madrigal: though sometimes we can make the mistake of thinking that its about 'niceness' maybe... or that it looks a certain way
    Zen Arado: being able to see clearly
    Eliza Madrigal nods Zen... staying in accord with 'center'...
    Zen Arado: yes that is 'acting' maybe
    Mitsu Ishii: well I stood in line all night last night for an iPhone so that is my excuse for not writing a report yet again
    Eliza Madrigal: :) As good as any....
    Mitsu Ishii: however I do have a story which also happened yesterday which might be related to this
    Eliza Madrigal: Great :)
    Zen Arado: iphone is perfection :)
    Zen Arado: already
    Eliza Madrigal practices 'don't envy'
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arachia :) Welcome to Ways of Knowing Workshop
    Zen Arado: Hi Arachia

    Mitsu Ishii: I was on my way to meet Sue/Dao for dinner
    Mitsu Ishii: on the subway
    Mitsu Ishii: and there is this very long escalator up from the 7 train platform
    Mitsu Ishii: what people usually do is walk up on the left and stand on the right
    Mitsu Ishii: in the UK of course people always follow this rule perfectly
    Mitsu Ishii: in New York people only "mostly" follow the rule
    Zen Arado: of course :)
    Arachia Botanical: I get back to civilization and find KISS is on thursday I thought it use to be on Fridays. I am locked in a lab all thursdays till my relief comes at 4 EST
    Mitsu Ishii: anyway, we were the first off the train so myself and another guy started walking relatively quickly up the escalator
    Mitsu Ishii: there was one guy standing, dutifully, on the right, way up ahead
    Mitsu Ishii: meanwhile behind me there's some guy in a suit who is running up the escalator
    Mitsu Ishii: he's clearly in a big hurry
    Mitsu Ishii: so the situation is, there's a guy in front of me walking relatively quickly up, a business suit guy running up passing me on the right, and this guy up ahead standing on the right.
    Eliza Madrigal can picture it clearly
    Arachia Botanical: LOL I have only seen a few escalators in my life but then I am from florida
    Mitsu Ishii: now the business suit runner is almost going fast enough to cut in front of the guy in front of me before he gets to the standing man on the right
    Mitsu Ishii: but not quite. so obviously the polite thing to do is wait for the guy to pass the standing person and then run past him.
    Mitsu Ishii: but instead, he decides to "go for it" and smash his way in between the two men
    Mitsu Ishii: at the last minute
    Eliza Madrigal: eek
    Mitsu Ishii: so the guy ahead of me is of course, quite upset by this and he exchanges some heated words
    Mitsu Ishii: initially it appears the business guy apologizes and puts his hand on the guy in a gesture of "sorry"
    Mitsu Ishii: then he proceeds to jog up the escalator to the top
    Mitsu Ishii: the other guy continues walking up and it seems to be over, but at the top they are close enough that the guy the business suit man almost ran over is still close enough to say some more angry words
    Arachia Botanical: My only bad experience with those escalators in the on in the tampa mall that kids skateboard down!
    Mitsu Ishii: so at the top they stop again and start arguing
    Mitsu Ishii: clearly the run-over guy is feeling aggrieved and insults the other one though I can't hear what they are saying
    Mitsu Ishii: the business guy finally get pissed off and sharply pushes the aggrieved party with a poking motion
    Mitsu Ishii: I'm watching all this from several yards away
    Eliza Madrigal: ack, seem to have time to argue over being in a hurry ...
    Eliza Madrigal: (Hi Dao!)
    Calvino Rabeni: Lool Eliza
    Mitsu Ishii: the run-over guy looks a bit startled and just stands there for a moment
    Dao Yheng: (Hi, sneaking in late -- apologies!)
    Sartre Placebo: hi dao
    Mitsu Ishii: the business man has already left and has started to head for his platform
    Zen Arado: Hi Dao
    Mitsu Ishii: at this point the run-over guy decides to ATTACK
    Eliza Madrigal: oh no
    Mitsu Ishii: he starts to RUN towards the business guy, with the clear intent to get into a major fight
    Arachia Botanical: this is in new york right, , , New Yorkers always seemed pissed about something even when theyve moved to Florida for 5 years
    Mitsu Ishii: physical
    Mitsu Ishii: obviously this is not going to end well
    Eliza Madrigal: O.o (ala Wol)
    Mitsu Ishii: so without thinking I leap forward and shout in a martial arts kiai voice "*****HEY*****!!!!"
    Mitsu Ishii: angrily and put my hands out to keep them apart
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
    Eliza Madrigal: where are cameras when we need them...
    Mitsu Ishii: the guy who was lunging forward just stops suddenly
    Arachia Botanical: and starts laughing?
    Mitsu Ishii: looks at me for a second, then turns and walks towards his platform (thankfully a different one from the business guy)
    Eliza Madrigal: oh wow... you broke his rage
    Mitsu Ishii: no, he is not laughing, at all. but I think he is a bit ashamed
    Mitsu Ishii: he walked away quickly. he knew he had been about to do something very wrong.
    Arachia Botanical: at how stupid he was about to get
    Zen Arado: you stopped his blind reaction
    Eliza Madrigal: he was unconscious before
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen Arado: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: yeah it was like a wake up or something. it would have been bad. I am quite sure the business guy has some damn good lawyers
    Mitsu Ishii: as the business guy was clearly a bit of an ass
    Arachia Botanical: this was new york right
    Eliza Madrigal: a stitch in time, saves nine
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Heloise, nice to see you again
    Mitsu Ishii: but that would have ended very badly for both, but especially the run-over guy.
    Heloise Toussaint: Hi
    Heloise Toussaint: Good to be back
    Mitsu Ishii: hello Heloise
    Zen Arado: Hi Heloise
    Dao Yheng: Hi Heloise
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya has a cold today unfortunately
    Mitsu Ishii: I realized I don't have to use martial arts very often at all, at least in a true situation of conflict
    Heloise Toussaint: Oh dear, sorry to hear that
    Mitsu Ishii: but that was certainly one of those instantaneous moments
    Eliza Madrigal: yes really interesting Mitsu, and also interesting is that you didn't 'think' to do that
    Mitsu Ishii: where I was glad I had done all those hours of practice in my youth, if only to be able to shout HEY in just the right stern and quick manner.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: yeah there was no thought at all, it was an immediate visceral response to the situation, to stop the violence
    Eliza Madrigal: You were responsive to the situation
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :))
    Zen Arado: so that you didn't have to think either
    Mitsu Ishii: I didn't care if I was going to get attacked myself. I just had to step in at that instant.

    Dao Yheng: interesting, yes -- years of build up in a way, but the whole thing happened so fast
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Calvino Rabeni: It comes in rather handy at unexpected times - a metaphor for many practices
    Zen Arado: so we practice similarly so we react compassionately in situations
    Zen Arado: with meditation
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods...
    Zen Arado: and dharma
    Mitsu Ishii: yes there is a reason for practice...
    Zen Arado: like studying lojong teachings and koans too
    Dao Yheng: I liked that angle from Eliza's report too -- meditation / stillness not wasted :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel about practice - it isn't a skill, a plan, a duty - it is about who we become, the root of those other things
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.. or who we are that we learn to let shine
    Zen Arado: uncovering who we really are
    Calvino Rabeni: removing the obscurations
    Eliza Madrigal: excavation of authenticity perhaps
    Zen Arado: nice phrase Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Would you like to comment on your report, Dao? I was curious to hear more of what you noticed...
    Dao Yheng: It's quite related to what we're talking about now, I think
    Eliza Madrigal: ty Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Sartre Placebo: good night everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Nite Sartre :)
    Zen Arado: nite Yaku
    Dao Yheng: night!
    Zen Arado: Sartre I mean :)
    Dao Yheng: just interesting to note that getting angry has duration that changes based on how much I've noticed, am in the habit of noticing, how well I've been taking care of myself (in terms of sleeping and eating)
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, yes! That last item... we can't leave ourselves out of care

    Dao Yheng: pretty basic stuff, really -- just noticing the way the root is also fed by our actions
    Calvino Rabeni: important
    Arachia Botanical: yes we all need to watch that we remember to sleep ... .... .....a few times a week ug my bad habit
    Zen Arado: basic stuff is the hardest to practice maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: Well that's what has struck me anew this week... It IS basic...
    Eliza Madrigal: but basic is so rich
    Calvino Rabeni: so true
    Zen Arado: nothing is 'basic' really
    Arachia Botanical: It is always the basic stuff that I have trouble with the complex is easy by compare
    Eliza Madrigal: isn't it funny
    Arachia Botanical: you have to focus on the complex stuff and you forget the basic
    Calvino Rabeni: the old saying - familiarity breeds contempt - it is easy to take things for granted
    Zen Arado: yes Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: and only focus on the "problems" and "interests"
    Eliza Madrigal nods... there seems a parallel here in stillness meditation and then insight meditation too ...
    Zen Arado: maditation is kind of getting back to basics
    Eliza Madrigal: that stillness is the undercurrent
    Calvino Rabeni: As, taking the earth for granted, because it has been so good at absorbing and supporting all our by-products
    Zen Arado: appreciation of them
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed Cal
    Zen Arado: yes

    Calvino Rabeni: these "basic" things are the "earth" of self
    Zen Arado: taking partners for granted too
    Eliza Madrigal: and Zen, yes.... each time we come back to meditation we are making a choice
    Calvino Rabeni: the foundation,deserving of appreciation and awareness
    Dao Yheng: in a sense, what we take for granted changes with practice too, I think
    Zen Arado: not appreciating everyone's uniqueness
    Eliza Madrigal: which may not play then but show up unexpectedly, like on an escalator :)
    Eliza Madrigal: or more likely, in ways we never see
    Arachia Botanical: one night I ran all over trying to remember what I felt I forgot and when I found the list I made for myself it was to brush my teeth, , , a basic thing but if you get busy as I am it is easy to forget something like that once in a while
    Zen Arado: wheelchairs and escalators are a bad mixture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMXamosNN9Q
    Eliza Madrigal: wow Arachia :))
    Eliza Madrigal not sure I want to click that zen
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Dao Yheng: (was thinking the same!)
    Arachia Botanical: Hey go to the mall in tampa and try to avoid the skateboard that come down the escalators
    Zen Arado: I have to brush mine twice sometimes cos I can't remember if I did
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni feared to click thereon
    Eliza Madrigal laughs...
    Zen Arado: you won't get me on one anyway :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Will have to wait to see it.... computer won't play it yet...
    Calvino Rabeni: Actually Arachnia, that sounds fun - good thing I'm not 16 any more :)
    Zen Arado: I'm sure the guy had serious injuries though
    Zen Arado: it is a bit sickening
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, one of those...
    Zen Arado: better not watch it
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: but it is a good cautionary example against trying that
    Eliza Madrigal: The next paramita is "Patience" btw
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Arachia Botanical: It is also a good example of why guys are consider cluses
    Eliza Madrigal: Are we moving on, or would others like to stay with ethics for a third week? As I mentioned, I'll be absent but will write homework :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The problem could be solved by turning the mall into a skatepark after hours
    Arachia Botanical: i didn't spell that right, accident prone
    Eliza Madrigal has been happy but surprised to see so many skate parks popping up...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it seems a good thing
    Eliza Madrigal: So... ethics, patience, ethics, patience....
    Zen Arado: think we should move on perhaps (he said impatiently) :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Dao Yheng: I'd be up for patience as well
    Eliza Madrigal: we can always go back if Gilles returns :)
    Arachia Botanical: In tampa the one mall was doing bad and went down hill starting when I was 10 that they started letting the skateboarders in, Hey I guess they must of brought in some business
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I don't feel "done" with it ...
    Zen Arado: unless you want to go through the precepts?
    Dao Yheng: Hmm, ethics and patience together?
    Calvino Rabeni: But if necessary we can invite Gilles
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... yes it would be like a transition week!
    Eliza Madrigal: Gilles is away, Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, maybe another time
    Eliza Madrigal: so can't come, but maybe he will in a few weeks, we'll see :)
    Mitsu Ishii: I think we should do the paramitas again when Gilles is able to attend
    Eliza Madrigal: yes it would be interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: at least this ethics discussion
    Eliza Madrigal: or we can re-take his question/s in any event
    Calvino Rabeni: we're looking at the "internal" viewpoint of ethics
    Eliza Madrigal has definitely chatterboxed a lot today... enough to make up for last week and next!
    Zen Arado: makes more sense to me than ethical arguments
    Dao Yheng: We always enjoy it, Eliza -- please chatter away!
    Eliza Madrigal laughs... nice group :)
    Zen Arado: we like chatterboxes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... will post homework as "Ethics & Patience"
    Eliza Madrigal: hope you'll join us again Arachia and Heloise :)
    Heloise Toussaint: yep, I'm here next week so should be able to attend
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Great
    Zen Arado: can we come too ? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Arachia Botanical: I know where I am now they will through you out of a store if they see any wheels under your feet but in some place they don't give two hoots about any of it.
    Eliza Madrigal: let me ask
    Eliza Madrigal: yes zen we can attend too
    Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
    Dao Yheng: yay!
    Dao Yheng: OK, see you next week
    Zen Arado: ok might be late though
    Dao Yheng: thanks all!
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah laughing
    Zen Arado: thanks all
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone! Glad you made it Dao (and everyone)
    Zen Arado: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye

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