2010.05.20 - View

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     Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
     Mitsu Ishii: hi everyone
     Calvino Rabeni: I probably have to leave at 3:30SLT
     Dao Yheng: today Mitsu looks like a jet trail to me
     Agatha Macbeth: Hello Mitsu
     Gaya Ethaniel: You both look fine to me.
     Dao Yheng: Shall we dig in then, Calvino?
     Dao Yheng: How are you finding writing reportsI'm still thinking about the comment you made in the one from last week?
     Mitsu Ishii: we were going to talk more about the view this week.
     Timbo Quan: hello Mitsu
     Dao Yheng: yes, I suppose I'm interested the "view" around writing reports :)
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Dao Yheng: I personally found it a bit tricky to articulate exactly what I think my own view is
     Calvino Rabeni: I found it tricky alsy
     Calvino Rabeni: *also
     Mitsu Ishii: perhaps the question was too broadly framed
     Dao Yheng: Easier to notice the shifts
     Calvino Rabeni: Not hard to write about; but to see whether there is a kernel or bottom line is hard
     Mitsu Ishii: more specifically, I suppose, one could talk about an emphasis on view with respect to the point of practice
     Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
     Agatha Macbeth: Mind me head Mick ;-)
     Mickorod Renard: hi
     Dao Yheng: (Hi Mickorod! Nice to see you again)
     Mickorod Renard: yes,,hi..long time
     Agatha Macbeth: No Eliza then?
     Gaya Ethaniel: Eliza said in her report, she will miss the meeting.
     Agatha Macbeth: Aww :(
     Mitsu Ishii: Stim/Steven has often talked about the importance of view with respect to practice
     Mitsu Ishii: that is to say, one can do the same practice, like sitting meditation
     Mitsu Ishii: with a variety of radically different views
     Gaya Ethaniel: Yes he introduced this point at a very early stage of the workshop.
     Mickorod Renard: /
     Calvino Rabeni: I forgot to put in my writeup, - "Everything is practice"
     Mickorod Renard: mental view?
     Dao Yheng: But sometimes the way I do it, everything is not practice too :)
     Calvino Rabeni: Well, I think of that as practice too :)
     Calvino Rabeni: Practice of unconsciousness perhaps
     Calvino Rabeni: One is always practicing *someway
     Dao Yheng: right -- just as we always have a view, whether examined or not
     Mickorod Renard: so its like reviewing an opinion?
     Gaya Ethaniel: Stim used an example of counting breath practice with different views1: Frame this practice with the view that an unfocused, scattered mind lies at the heart of many of life's problems, and that the practice should be used to help you learn to control the mind so that it eventually suffers no distractions and enjoys strict, uninterrupted awareness.
     Mitsu Ishii: I liked your post, Calvino, it definitely corresponds to my own take, very similar
     Gaya Ethaniel: 2.meet all distractions with compassionate inclusionSo anything that arises within your nature which seems likely to throw you off or make you lose the count should be met in a welcoming and inclusive way..and an _appreciative_ way! The view here is that there are no real distractions, only things that we haven't yet learned to appreciate as actually contributing toward a larger sense of presence.
     Agatha MacbethAgatha Macbeth nods
     Mickorod Renard: werfulond
     Gaya Ethaniel: 3.being disciplined and focused but also welcoming toward [disctractions] ... but attend in particular to the aliveness you can find within each part of the breath. Enter that aliveness and allow it to open up to more of itself. This is not about imagining anything, only seeing more of what is there.
     Calvino Rabeni: TY Mitsu
     Dao Yheng: I think it's not so difficult to notice how a narrow view can narrow my sense practice -- but I suppose what's surprising is that even a narrow view somehow admits surprises
     Gaya Ethaniel: I just pasted the three views as a reminder ...
     Agatha Macbeth: Ty Gaya
     Mickorod Renard: ty
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Gaya Ethaniel: Until this workshop, I didn't pay much attention what kind of views I hold in terms of practice.
     Gaya Ethaniel: I think views are more important than actual meditation techniques etc.
     Gaya Ethaniel: ..perhaps most important :)
     Mitsu Ishii: of those three views, I more or less go with the second.
     Mitsu Ishii: I try, to the extent possible, to use that second view at all times
     Gaya EthanielGaya Ethaniel nods.
     Gaya Ethaniel: Third one is useful in exploring particular aspects etc.
     Gaya Ethaniel: Third mode*
     Dao Yheng: Interesting! I actually tend to take the opposite point of view -- that a view may be an expression of being, but it's not so easy for me to work with a view per se
     Gaya Ethaniel: Well, I'm not sure how I work with viewsI just noticed that I strongly held the first view at the beginning of my practice and effects of it.
     Calvino Rabeni: With me it is mostly #2, sometimes #3
     Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure even with an exact instruction of counting breath, not everyone would hold [consciously or not] a same view.
     Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for posting that
     Mickorod Renard: its refreshing to be reminded of Stims workings
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Dao Yheng: Even the same person would not hold exactly the same view moment to moment
     Gaya Ethaniel: That's true also.
     Mickorod Renard: I can admit to operating these days with some ways that he has coloured me with
     Dao Yheng: :) Would you like to say more about that?
     Mickorod Renard: me?
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Dao Yheng: yes!
     Mickorod Renard: he he
     Mickorod Renard: well, I work in a very bizzare environment
     Mickorod Renard: a school full of kids
     Mickorod Renard: lots of stresses and little logic
     Dao Yheng: :)
     Timbo Quan: sounds like work
     Calvino Rabeni: OMG Mick :)
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Mickorod Renard: but from being able to press on with the daily chores,,in a positive,,open way is very rewarding
     Mickorod Renard: and seeing other collegues struggle,,only makes me aware of the ways of thinking I have addopted from these classes
     Mickorod Renard: adopted
     Mickorod Renard: being open to diferent views
     Mickorod Renard: very useful
     Mickorod Renard: done
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Mickorod Renard: :)
     Dao Yheng: A highly charged situation -- can either go very smoothly or very badly?
     Mickorod Renard: yes
     Mickorod Renard: control is often thought of as forcful
     Mickorod Renard: or imposing
     Mickorod Renard: but by being open and free,,is strangely liberating
     Mickorod Renard: and is imune to outside conroling forces
     Mickorod Renard: scuse spelling
     Gaya Ethaniel: :) I do remember you working with 'control'.
     Mickorod Renard: yes
     Mickorod Renard: :)
     Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds like your view [excuse the pun] has expanded and opened up since :)
     Mickorod Renard: now I dont fight the fight, I am just free to pass unafected
     Mickorod Renard: to a point
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Mickorod Renard: and I think much comes from opening ones views
     Gaya Ethaniel: How would you aritculate your view now Mick?
     Gaya Ethaniel: Say view on life etc.
     Mickorod Renard: there are more ways to skin a rabbit
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Mickorod Renard: he he
     Dao Yheng: (are we back to bunnies:)
     Mickorod Renard: I seem to see most things as humerous
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Gaya Ethaniel: May I ask if you have a regular practice or a sort Mick?
     Mickorod Renard: humourous
     Gaya Ethaniel: I know you were doing 9 sec.
     Mickorod Renard: well,,I like to think everyday is a practice
     Gaya Ethaniel: I mean a formal one like 9 sec or otherson top of everyday part.
     Mickorod Renard: but I am enjoying life so much now,,I am worrying I wont have long enough to explore it all
     Gaya Ethaniel: wow that's big.
     Mickorod Renard: well, I treat my cigar smoking as a time to contemplate
     Gaya Ethaniel: lol again!
     Dao Yheng: :))
     Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure nicotine keeps things pretty regular.
     Mickorod Renard: but break times are a good time for reflexion,,and to reflect on how events have a toll on collegues
     Dao Yheng: Yes, the wisdom of taking breaks!
     Calvino Rabeni: Life has so many dimensions; one meta-practice is to become aware of and partake in them
     Calvino Rabeni: As a matter of balance
     Calvino Rabeni: Ecclesiastes
     Gaya Ethaniel: Actually that is what I'd describe as 'everyday' practice CalvinoDon't you think it's helpful to have a formal practice on top as well?
     Gaya Ethaniel: Even like a micro-meditation practised at PaB.
     Mickorod Renard: someone said in pab a while back,,Eliza I think,,about how work or chores enjoyed is enrichening,,chores disliked are exhausting
     Mickorod Renard: I think I can now see a patern in how many people with a diferent view on what they are doing,,even though its the same as others,,become exhausted
     Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, not wanting to do while doing it deplates energy unnecessarily.
     Mitsu Ishii: although I take an "everyday practice" view as well, I have to say that I think retreats make a big difference.
     Dao Yheng: Yes, Eliza's refridgerater-cleaning koan -- a favorite!
     Mickorod Renard: I have only been on the one,,it was very rewarding
     Mitsu Ishii: that is, I take life as my practice and try to practice in every day moments: when I wake up, when I rest, sitting in the subway.
     Gaya Ethaniel: The view behind that would be 'chores aren't important/essential'In fact, chores are as vital as eating, sleeping etc...
     Calvino Rabeni: @gaya, Yes, I believe a moderate amount of formal practices are good to have
     Mitsu Ishii: but retreats, despite the fact that I do them without an idea of "gaining" or getting "better"
     Mitsu Ishii: still have a big effectjust the gesture of practicing for long periods for a week or more.
     Calvino Rabeni: Formal practices help overcome unconsciousness and refine skills
     Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I think retreats are good especially for people with very busy schedules.
     Calvino Rabeni: But I'd rather have an aware ordinary life than a life of formality
     Calvino Rabeni: I think a little formality goes a long way
     Calvino Rabeni: Some people seem to get stuck init?
     Mitsu Ishii: have people felt they had trouble applying an inclusive view to things that happen in everyday life?
     Mitsu Ishii: for example, something is really upsetting, etc.
     Mickorod Renard: oddly, by removing my own sense of self importance has also alowed me an oportunity, psychologically, to step back,,and watch the effects of the world around me,,this is a regular break i give myself
     Gaya Ethaniel: I guess it offers a dramatic 'change of scenery' in terms of place and schedules.
     Mitsu Ishii: it's not just the change of scenery --- it's more the space of a lot of practiceI think of practice more as a space, an opening, than it is an effort to achieve something.
     Dao Yheng: Hmm, change of scenery as another way to take a break
     Gaya Ethaniel: Actually 'naturalness' workshops help me with being inclusive MitsuWhen feeling upset, I really feel it and accept as 'natural' but not indulge.
     Calvino Rabeni: Agree Mitsu
     Mitsu Ishii: when you have a lot of space, then your life can sort of come forward more, because there's less to obstruct it
     Mitsu Ishii: less "stuff" going on
     Gaya Ethaniel: Break and lots of space because of change of schedule ..I meant the same.
     Calvino Rabeni: Too much of anything is limiting - too much detachment, to much engagement
     Calvino Rabeni: And of course, we're attached to each of those in different ways simultaneously
     Mickorod Renard: I think many are drowning in a suffocation of self imposed importance
     Calvino Rabeni: Well that's a desert Mick
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Calvino Rabeni: And a paradox
     Calvino Rabeni: If importance is self-imposed, it feels inauthentic
     Calvino Rabeni: Substitute for the real thing, perhaps?
     Mickorod Renard: self imposed is from my perspective
     Gaya Ethaniel: I think it just needs a little tweakingI'm important equally as everyone else.
     Mickorod Renard: anyone can choose to step out of it for a few seconds
     Calvino Rabeni: Well, I believe we are important *throughothers
     Calvino Rabeni: Any importance needs witnesses
     Gaya Ethaniel: Or go on a retreat :P
     Mickorod Renard: but I in the past,,and others around me feel that the world will end if they stop for a second
     Mitsu Ishii: right, a change of schedule, but also the formal practice which is basically mostly about opening spacelike sitting meditation: just sitting there with no partiocular purpose.
     Mitsu Ishii: in fact, that's precisely why it's so important, the view
     Calvino Rabeni: Relative to importance - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy)
     Mitsu Ishii: because if we turn practice into a kind of goal-oriented task, it becomes something that fills up the space again.
     Gaya EthanielGaya Ethaniel nods.
     Calvino Rabeni: Consider the need of others, a school or help, whether formal or not
     Mitsu Ishii: rather, we just sit or whatever the practice happens to be, without an idea of a goal, and thereby let life come forward a bit moreI find that really helpful after a week or more of retreat.
     Calvino Rabeni: And a regular experience of "communion"
     Mickorod Renard: can I read that later Cal?
     Calvino Rabeni: Yes it is for later
     Mitsu Ishii: ah, we need a theme for the next week.
     Gaya Ethaniel: mhm :)
     Calvino Rabeni: How about "help"
     Gaya Ethaniel: I'd prefer something more practical.
     Gaya Ethaniel: For a change :)
     Dao Yheng: do you have a suggestion for us gaya?
     Calvino Rabeni: what could be more practcal than help?
     Calvino Rabeni: You mean, technical?
     Gaya Ethaniel: We could go back to 'dream' in Lojong or a variation of it?
     Gaya Ethaniel: Life as dream or as Zen suggested all dharmas are dream.
     Gaya Ethaniel: Or any reports related to dreams :)
     Calvino Rabeni: Something practical?
     Dao Yheng: (I could reuse this week's report!)
     Gaya Ethaniel: Something like a concerete practice based one Clavino.
     Gaya Ethaniel: lol
     Gaya Ethaniel: Dao you could join a dream circle happening next week - fyi http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...A_Dream_Circle
     Mickorod Renard: I like the idea of practical ways of presenting quality escape moments
     Gaya Ethaniel: Wed next week 7 am SLT at PaB
     Mitsu Ishii: okay how's this
     Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that sounds good
     Mitsu Ishii: we do dreams, and talk about dreams, but also perhaps we can think about the lojong phrase "Renew your commitment when you get up and before you go to sleep."
     Mitsu Ishii: I use that myself quite a bit
     Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds good :)
     Dao Yheng: And can our dreams be quality escape moments too:)
     Calvino Rabeni: For future reference, I was thinking "how to deal with tiredness"
     Gaya Ethaniel: :)
     Mickorod Renard: the renew of commitment sounds a lil like sayin a prayer
     Calvino Rabeni: or a vow
     Mickorod Renard: yes
     Calvino Rabeni: those are good angles too :)
     Gaya Ethaniel: Or even reminding of a view :)
     Calvino Rabeni: OO, GTG everyone, thanks much :)
     Mickorod Renard: Stim used to stress on loving our self more
     Mitsu Ishii: it can just be a commitment to presence
     Mickorod Renard: bye Cal
     Mitsu Ishii: bye
     Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
     Dao Yheng: OK, thanks all!
     Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone :)
     Timbo Quan: thanks everyone - bye
     Mickorod Renard: thankyou for bein so accomodating of me
     Gaya Ethaniel: wb Mick :)
     Mickorod Renard: :)

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    Viewing 1 of 1 comments: view all
    Originally written on 13:48, 22 May 2010
    Nice session everyone!!
    Posted 10:52, 21 Nov 2010
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