2010.01.07 - Workshop 39

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    The following is a transcript of the workshop for Jan 7th 2010.

    Stim Morane: OK ... we should start.
    Stim Morane: It's nice to see you all again
    Pila Mulligan: oops, excuse me pleas eLia
    Stim Morane: I hope you're well, and that the new year will be kind to you
    Lia Rikugun: (no problem :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Stim, you too :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty :) Same to you.
    Stim Morane: thanks
    Stim Morane: perhaps the main thing we can do at this point is just to sum up, or answer questions.
    Stim Morane: I am too booked up with work to continue a regular workshop ...
    Stim Morane: so we should concentrate on questions or observations you have that can be usefully addressed now.
    Stim Morane: Can you think of something you'd like to raise or discuss?
    Pila Mulligan: uhhh, this is it?
    Stim Morane: well, I think we have to wind down, yes
    Stim Morane: these cafe workshops were never intended to run on indefinitely
    Mickorod Renard: thats a sad moment
    Pila Mulligan: /'s eyes get watery
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Stim Morane: well I have greatly enjoyed meeting you and chatting with you.
    Timbo Quan: indeed
    Mickorod Renard: I just got the book too
    Mickorod Renard: :(
    Stim Morane: I hope that I will eventually learn enough about SL to see a way to offer something more helpful here.
    Mickorod Renard: I feel you have offered an unprecedented amout of help already stim
    Pila Mulligan: agree with Mick
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, thank you for that
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, thank you :)
    Stim Morane: That's very kind, Mick. But I think I would need a lot more understanding of SL to really earn that assessment.
    Mitsu Ishii: Yes, as I said before I think you may be underestimating the impact these meetings have had
    Stim Morane: Each situation, even in RL, is unique.
    Mickorod Renard: yes, well said Mitsu
    Stim Morane: Oh, well perhaps you're right, Mitsu.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, we can go shopping together instead then Stim :P
    Pila Mulligan: maybe this is all you can do with SL
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or clubbing ... etc etc ...
    Pila Mulligan: just be rally helpful :)
    Stim Morane: In any case, i hope the impact wasn't too weird.
    Pila Mulligan: really*
    Stim Morane: SHopping is good, yes Gaya
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: But I will have to work a lot before I can grab the time to do it.
    Mickorod Renard: are u going to socialise on sl still Stim?
    Stim Morane: I will be in sl, just checking things out, Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel nods ...
    Mickorod Renard: great
    Stim Morane: in fact, I'm very eager to get ideas from you all re what I might investigate
    Stim Morane: there's a lot here I don't know about
    Stim Morane: and that's the point, really.
    Mitsu Ishii: Dao and I have certainly enjoyed having this forum quite a bit, particularly in Dao (Sue)'s case, because she doesn't feel she has many people to talk about this stuff with nearby.
    Mickorod Renard: Wok is good
    Stim Morane: I need to see what SL really is
    Stim Morane: If any of you would like to continue a kind of group discussion forum, please do
    Stim Morane: I'm sure that can be arranged
    Cor Wylder: Stim, you need venue in which you can ask real questions about SL
    Stim Morane: that's interesting, Cor
    Stim Morane: say more?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,we will have to have a slot called 'ways of not knowing' until Stim returns
    Cor Wylder: Perhaps an ocasional focus group on SL potential as it fits your perspective as teacher or whatever your concerns may be
    Stim Morane: I'm a living example of ways of not knowing
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: I'm trying to bring in a bit of the other, while I'm still around at all
    Cor Wylder: And they are questions requring ongoing engagement like koans,
    Stim Morane: Cor, perhaps that's possible
    Pila Mulligan: so a new group, Ways of Not Knowing -- WONK
    Stim Morane: and as my experience with sl increases, I may have better questions and perspectives too, hopefully
    Cor Wylder: :) cor likes it
    Stim Morane: wonk sounds much more entertaining that my wok has been
    Stim Morane: I'm getting enthusiastic ...
    Stim Morane: )
    Mickorod Renard: well,,i heard it said that there is technique in emptying the mind
    Mickorod Renard: wonk could do that
    Mitsu Ishii: well, I have a topic we could discuss if people want to have a little discussion in this last meeting
    Stim Morane: Mick, you are in good company, historically
    Stim Morane: Yes, Mitsu?
    Mickorod Renard: yes pls mitsu
    Mitsu Ishii: it's less clear to me than it was just a couple of weeks ago, but basically I had this very quotidian insight
    Mitsu Ishii: it has to do with something like this --- one problem that we've probably all seen has to do with thoughts and how they might seem to pull us off track
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: or perhaps a better way of putting it is ... thoughts having to do with ways in which we want to try to act on the world or change things in some sense
    Mitsu Ishii: yet of course there's nothing wrong with changing things in general, or performing actions in principle
    Mitsu Ishii: so the question is, what is the problem?
    Stim Morane: and your answer?
    Mitsu Ishii: well, usually I think of this in ineffable terms in terms of being, or just participating or working with suchness or something of that sort
    Stim Morane: uh huh
    Mitsu Ishii: but the other day I had a much lower level insight which I thought I'd throw out
    Mitsu Ishii: it was clearer before but as I can remember it now, it was basically that ordinary action tends to be framed in terms of setting up an idea of ourselves and of the other things in our world or people, and then attempting to perform actions on that picture
    Mitsu Ishii: however, in a very simple sense, that can't work very well, because of the disconnect between the picture and reality, so to speak.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: so if you really want to be "effective" -- to have purchase, to use a word Stim once used a while ago
    Mickorod Renard: I guess its important to get the ethics right first? what u think?
    Mitsu Ishii: you kind of have to allow/let the world/universe in, that is to say, connect
    Stim Morane: well, we do the best we can ... at the time
    Mitsu Ishii: so that you aren't simply fiddling with items in your picture, but rather concretely allow the "external" to be connected with you, i.e., let it in
    Eliza Madrigal: mingle..
    Stim Morane: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: and then the way you respond becomes more about what is actually there and less about fiddling with some illusory projection onto things
    Stim Morane: and Mick is right in thinking that involves things like ethical perception too
    Mitsu Ishii: it was basically this simple idea of allowing the universe/world in somehow
    Stim Morane: anyway, yes
    Stim Morane: do you all have some insights re this?
    Zon Quar: we should be like a holoow bamboo and let teh univers sing its song through us
    Stim Morane: :)
    Zon Quar: gtg, sllepy, bye all
    Eliza Madrigal: yes it fits with a kind of 'everything' as path... not projecting 'out there'... that's not even real compassion I guess if 'out there'
    Mickorod Renard: bye Zon
    Stim Morane: sure, Zon, bye!
    Eliza Madrigal: bye zon
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Zon
    Mitsu Ishii: bye
    Stim Morane: true, Eliza
    Lia Rikugun: (sorry me too, tiptoeing out, time for bed.. :)
    Mickorod Renard: I am becoming aware of a natural flow,,one without ,ratherwith less friction
    Stim Morane: OK, thanks Lia! Bye!
    Mitsu Ishii: bye
    Mickorod Renard: bye Lia
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lia
    Eliza Madrigal: bye lia :)
    Stim Morane: Good, Mick. I hope that can contribute to your life on various levels.
    Mickorod Renard: like streamlining against a gale
    Mickorod Renard: and then one finds one slips through effortlessly
    Stim Morane: Very glad to hear that, Mick
    Mitsu Ishii: there was one other aspect to it... which is simply that I realized that we can simply use up so much time living in that projected world of things that
    are imaginary issues, and just spending less time on that is 95% of what is important. We don't have to achieve the real, we just have to make less of the unreal
    Gaya Ethaniel: This fits well why Tolstoy was so blind about people close by him re: disconnect while acting on 'good' principles. Just begun reading 'Kingdom of ...'
    Mickorod Renard: maybe we have been fish out of water too long
    Mitsu Ishii: the quotidian insight was just: all you have to do is less of that. which is kind of obvious but for some reason it seemed significant in the last few weeks
    for me, esp. talking with others
    Stim Morane: Mitsu, I think most contemplative spirituality should be based on your suggestion
    Eliza Madrigal: let it empty itself, so to speak?
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Gaya Ethaniel: Allow some space I guess ... give reality a chance.
    Mickorod Renard: I feel that is similar to my thoughts Mitsu,,like why force when svelt is easier
    Stim Morane: yes
    Mitsu Ishii: yes, Gaya
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: Mick, you're a poet!
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Stim Morane: the insight you mention, Mitsu, is hugely important even though it seems very ordinary, as you say.
    Stim Morane: we don't have a big, on-going task, just a simple, direct one
    Mitsu Ishii: yeah, it was like, this is pretty basic.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: but I understand that there could be a lot of meaning in it that can't be easily unpacked verbally
    Stim Morane: it could be addressed via a bit of easy-going vigilence, or via the self-emptying that Eliza mentioned.
    Mickorod Renard: can you say what the alternative is to verbally Stim?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: uh
    Mickorod Renard: thanks,,u just said
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: even though I've had thoughts about this before, somehow this time it struck me as more important than this thought had been to me before.
    It just seemed so straightforward somehow
    Stim Morane: yes, I understand
    Stim Morane: this will happen more and more
    Stim Morane: the alternative to ordinary thinking is both unsayable and natural
    Stim Morane: simple
    Stim Morane: present
    Stim Morane: it's easier to understand the limits of language and thinking when one isn't always caught up in them
    Mickorod Renard: in the past I would confront problems just for the sake of it,,now I either ignor them or circumnavige=ate them,,or see they dont exist
    Stim Morane: interesting, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: not always though
    Stim Morane: sure
    Stim Morane: our range of function is much greater, and much more different in kind, than we give ourselves credit for
    Stim Morane: what I tried to do in our meetings was just point a little at that extra range
    Stim Morane: life doesn't have to just be more of the same ...
    Cor Wylder: given that, it is valuable just to notice it
    Stim Morane: true, Cor
    Dao Yheng: I do find myself struggling with it as well, however
    Stim Morane: say more, Dao?
    Dao Yheng: there are times when my range of function is much more limited than it was say, yesterday or an hour ago
    Dao Yheng: I feel compelled to stay angry and I couldn't even tell you why
    Stim Morane: but do you feel you are more compassionate towards yourself in those cases, Dao?
    Stim Morane: I mean, than you might have been a decade ago?
    Dao Yheng: sometimes, but frankly, sometimes no
    Dao Yheng: of course, I know that I'll feel differently tomorrow
    Dao Yheng: which maybe I didn't know before
    Stim Morane: :)
    Dao Yheng: but what is immediately available can be quite closed down
    Stim Morane: well, that's totally normal, of course. We all feel that way.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder if that is because we have an idea in mind that it should be different ... we should be this way rather than ...
    Stim Morane: sometimes, I do, yes
    Stim Morane: too often, in fact
    Stim Morane: life is hard, and complicated
    Pila Mulligan: and life *is* finite
    Stim Morane: but it's not endlessly complicated, to the point where there is no chance of sorting it out
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: yeah, basically the insight I was talking about also had to do with this idea that problems should be attended to,
    but just the parts of them that are actually relevant (real)
    Mitsu Ishii: which is about 2% of what we imagine
    Eliza Madrigal: well it is always surprising to see familiar patterns when we're surprised, etc...
    Eliza Madrigal: which may be the only time to see them :)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I am making lots of obsevations nowadays
    Mitsu Ishii: i.e., that we can take some real issue and blow them up by a huge factor, and then spend all of our time in that huge fantasyland
    projection of the problems, when in fact the little 2% of the problem that is real is quite simple to deal with.
    Stim Morane: I agree, Mitsu
    Mickorod Renard: often observation is all that is needed..and no action
    Stim Morane: and that 2% itself may be seen as a significant 0%, eventually
    Stim Morane: yes, Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: We add so much ... I was observing children outside today ... they are cold yes but they aren't unhappy unlike adults around them.
    Mitsu Ishii: well, for example, it is cold, so put on a jacket.
    Mitsu Ishii: etc.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: simple
    Stim Morane: I tell people I'm a very boring person, for this reason.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mickorod Renard: my family now think I have become lazy
    Stim Morane: ARe they going to sue me, MicK?
    Mickorod Renard: but the fact is,,I am not running around like a lunatic now
    Dao Yheng: So, do you also feel it is simple to work with the fact that we are adding on a lot?
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's the need to interrupt to put on a coat ... somehow we are very intolerant about doing necessary things ...
    Mickorod Renard: its easier to go out shopping,,saves doing housework,,,,,,,,see I have u sussed Stim
    Stim Morane: so you are more comfortable, Mick? Oh, good.
    Eliza Madrigal: jacket might be buried underneath all kinds of things... seeing it there may actually cause a kind of distress...
    Stim Morane: Dao, sometimes it isn't simple
    Mickorod Renard: yes, in general,,but I still have the odd prob thats in my face
    Stim Morane: but what was impossible in the past may become easier, albeit still difficult now, and then easier, etc
    Stim Morane: Eliza, can you elaborate?
    Eliza Madrigal: guess I'm just thinking about this whole process... of seeing what one is working with...
    Eliza Madrigal: and then finding it impossible
    Stim Morane: you mean, seeing how buried things are ... overwhelms us?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes....
    Stim Morane: yes, good.
    Eliza Madrigal: getting through that can be really hard... undoable
    Stim Morane: But the good news, is that that we can come to see that necessary things are not really buried at all ... that they are "being buried" by our thinking,
    but are not "actually" buried
    Stim Morane: we bury them, then feel bad about how buried they are
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^;;;
    Stim Morane: this can all happen in an instant
    Mitsu Ishii: it's really quite comical
    Gaya Ethaniel nods ... hard to catch.
    Stim Morane: but we can come to see it happening, and learn how not to buy into it
    Stim Morane: yes, hard to catch
    Stim Morane: but it does become easier
    Mitsu Ishii: and they're not even really buried. It's like those colorforms I used to play with as a kid
    Eliza Madrigal: well seeing that its impossible does generate a kind of something
    Mitsu Ishii: you can paste on something that looks like a big pile but in fact it's just a thin piece of plastic
    Stim Morane: "yes" to both Eliza and Mits
    Gaya Ethaniel: Especially during strong emotions like anger ... guess not judging/comparing the situation could help, ie. not unhappy about being angry?
    Stim Morane: we are constantly being overwhelmed by monsters
    Stim Morane: that don't exist, or that we talk ourselves into accepting
    Stim Morane: as monsters
    Stim Morane: this just comes down to seeing the mind more clearly and directly, and working with it compassionately
    Stim Morane: just do one thing, then do another one thing, ...
    Stim Morane: don't worry about how hard it's all alleged to be
    Stim Morane: as Mitsu started out saying, it isn't that way
    Stim Morane: anyhow, thanks very much to you all for sharing your time and insights!
    Stim Morane: special thanks to Gaya, Eliza, Scathach, Pila, Dao, and all of you who have set up, maintained or contributed to the wiki or other group function-issues.
    It was very much appreciated.
    Pila Mulligan: thanks very much for everything Stim, and aloha everyone -- have a nice decade :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for investing your time with us, Stim
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou so much Stim,,for everything and not least your time
    Dao Yheng: thanks everyone!
    Stim Morane: My pleasure
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Stim and everyone :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes thank you Stim:)
    Mickorod Renard: can we come here next week?
    Stim Morane: and if some of you have advice for me re sl, let me know.
    Mitsu Ishii: if people are amenable, I would like to keep meeting
    Timbo Quan: Thanyou Stim & all best for future
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    Mitsu Ishii: even if it isn't a formal workshop any longer
    Stim Morane: sure, you can use this time for a group discussion forum, until the powers that be say otherwise
    Stim Morane: I'll be talking with the rest of the kira board in a couple weeks
    Stim Morane: I'll ask them about that
    Mitsu Ishii: that would be great.
    Mickorod Renard: well, I will do my best to come here next week
    Stim Morane: please do!
    Dao Yheng: great, see you next week then!
    Mickorod Renard: great
    Stim Morane: wonderful, I hope everyone can come to that and contribute.
    Mitsu Ishii: a bientot everyone
    Eliza Madrigal stays close to home mostly (PaB/kira/a teaching) so don't know what I'd have to offer but feel very free to ask about SL, Stim
    Mickorod Renard: Ciao
    Dao Yheng: bye all!
    Stim Morane: I will, thanks, Eliza
    Stim Morane: Bye everyone!
    Eliza Madrigal: or whathaveyou :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Mickorod Renard: bye stim
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye and thanks
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Stim and thanks:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Dao and I were talking about studying some texts together ...
    Stim Morane: Bye! And thank YOU
    Mitsu Ishii: I'm sure Dao would still be into that
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you be interested Eliza and Scath?
    Stim Morane: great, Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: that would be wonderful Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Dao just left too soon :(
    Scathach Rhiadra: that sounds a great idea Gaya!
    Gaya Ethaniel: We talked about doing some Confucian texts ...
    Stim Morane: sneaking out ...
    Mitsu Ishii: well you can email her
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure if such texts would be interests to you all in general?
    Mitsu Ishii: I'll mention it
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I will thanks :) See you later Mitsu.
    Gaya Ethaniel: If not, Dao and I and others can meet another time, elsewhere.
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all:
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Scath
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have a think and let me know :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté
    Mickorod Renard: nite scath
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scath
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal is dealing with the sting of attachment :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Gaya :)
    Mickorod Renard: 8 winds for me Gaya

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