2009.11.12 - Open Discussion

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    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: BTW I'm slow in SL, doesn't indicate aloofness though
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello gaya, timbo:)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Perfectly fine... people tell me I have a cold stare... I'm actually quite friendly. hahah
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya, Timbo :)
    Timbo Quan: hello everyone
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya and Timbo
    Gaya Ethaniel: D must be afk since yesterday ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Was he there yesterday, Gaya?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol! :)
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol:)
    Eliza Madrigal: You guys had a nice conversation last week, I read
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I read your report Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: rather substantive admist the running around, too
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I read too:)
    Eliza Madrigal: heh
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, well I took notes... not much of a report really
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I meant to go back and actually write... not much to say yet :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: So you would choose something specific relating to desire/naturalness then?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure, maybe why I didn't elaborate. It is like I'm working at the edges of something
    Eliza Madrigal: How did you do with specifics this week Gaya?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra listens
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... well, I'm not sure yet.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Last week as you saw, we didn't manage to go into how to get to specifics ...
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: :) I'd love to hear what others are thinking generally about this topic.. weeks into it and Hm...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, there is one exercise I picked already 'when feeling impatient, see if I'm breathing'. I don't purposefully check if I'm breathing anymore but ... have to think a bit more how to open up from there.
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, could just pick a specification or event and use that as basis?
    Scathach Rhiadra: specific situation*
    Eliza Madrigal: The breathing check is a good one... don't think one ever stops doing that
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks.
    Eliza Madrigal: Do you have an example maybe, Scath? Something you're looking at?
    Pila Mulligan: one shouldn.t (but sometimes it happens)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think I was thinking more along the line, checking if breathing shallow etc. but quality of breathing though different is natural responses.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... yes my phrasing was wrong there Pila. Yes, we do don't we... hmm, quality of breathing
    Scathach Rhiadra: well if you catch yourself, maybe getting frustrated, or angry at something, see if it is natural for ordinary mind, and if there is some other naturalness present as well?
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks.
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, like my having to apologize to a lady at the drycleaner... I became impatient.. wasn't her fault
    Gaya Ethaniel: Today I think I realise that my reactions tend to point to something to investigate rather than specific situations present then but something underlying.
    Scathach Rhiadra: just catching yourself shows something else is present, awareness
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Eliza Madrigal nods... like a friendly nudge
    Timbo Quan: wobbles ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: That is true, I notice how I behave more these days ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: heh :)
    Eliza Madrigal: It was natural to apologize... then, what was harder, was to let go... to move on without feeling overly guilty
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... Eliza you lost me ... what is feeling guilty about here?
    Eliza Madrigal: When I was angry at the lady at the drycleaner
    Eliza Madrigal: It was natural to apologize for that to her... but then after I felt bad that I'd let silly things rattle me
    Eliza Madrigal: and I had to move on ...let go of the guilt, having apologized
    Timbo Quan: seems to me that is it often easier to notice an emotion or response than to correct or not respond to something
    Scathach Rhiadra nods, yes
    Pila Mulligan: noticing conflict before anger sets in ....
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. Noticing at the time relieves something ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: or noticing the anger as it arises
    Pila Mulligan: ... the reason for being angry at the lady at the drycleaner probably related to some expectation
    Eliza Madrigal: It is rare for me to have that kind of moment... honestly. But yes absolutely Pila...
    Eliza Madrigal: I was feeling a little sad about having to go to a new cleaner...
    Eliza Madrigal: because a really nice man's business failed
    Pila Mulligan: ahh
    Eliza Madrigal: And then they were so not like he was...
    Pila Mulligan: and your expectations were related to the really nice man
    Eliza Madrigal: they were rushed and inflexible, etc.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I guess so. So complex... didnt see that til after of course
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok then what was natural about that case?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, maybe the affection for the cleaner who went out of business... maybe not knowing what to do with the emotion?
    Rahana Halostar: Excuse me what are you discussing.. May I join you
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Rahana :)
    Rahana Halostar: Hello there
    Gaya Ethaniel: Of course Rahana. Please see our wiki http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Rahana
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure. This is normally "Ways of Knowing" workshop. Stim Morane is travelling so we are having open discussion
    Rahana Halostar: Thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: We record our chats here, is it ok to record your name/comments?
    Rahana Halostar: Sure
    Gaya Ethaniel: Our current topic is 'naturalness' and our teacher will be back next week same time. Meanwhile we are having an open discussion today.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So it natural to feel the loss but it manifested into irritation that perhaps was not very helpful?
    Gaya Ethaniel: it was*
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: yes if I could have stopped and really felt the emotion of the failed business... maybe that would have been released naturally and not carried over?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think I have similar situations often, seeing underlying reasons of emotions afterwards.
    Scathach Rhiadra: brb
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder about that too Eliza ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes I think that's what meditation does for us...slows everything down..not really us, but everything else. hah
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bsck
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb
    Eliza Madrigal: wb Scath :)
    Timbo Quan: wb
    Gaya Ethaniel: On Monday I found out I could have been in the middle of a shooting. At the time I thought I wasn't affected so didn't really look into my feelings.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh wow
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think since then I've been over-reacting in general, overtly sensitive to things.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: You weren't at Stim's PaB session Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm, yes that makes sense Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: I related this story then.
    Eliza Madrigal: No, not this week
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Gaya Ethaniel: Like today, I let someone to get to me more than usual.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Took a few days to see it ... :(
    Eliza Madrigal: Just feeling like your insides are on the outside?
    Eliza Madrigal: vulnerable, so perhaps more defensive
    Eliza Madrigal: I have a family member whose house has been broken into twice in the last year, and he's become quite aggravated about everything... especially politics and this and that. I think it is related
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure Eliza, I feel pretty thick at the moment ... just a guess because I haven't really looked into it yet. But it goes back to the time I was distressed over my work colleague whose life was shattered by the bombing in London.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds like it Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh My, yes...feeling unsafe
    Gaya Ethaniel: I mean life is ... kind of precious. It can just go like that.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Timbo Quan: wobbles
    Eliza Madrigal: In a way, we saw that on a large scale after 911 in the US didn't we... defensiveness
    Eliza Madrigal: writ large
    Gaya Ethaniel pokes Tim ... I can poke you in RL too ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Timbo Quan: <sigh>
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's hard to get over such event for people involved as well as those outside.
    Eliza Madrigal nods...so it is natural to contract?
    Eliza Madrigal: like an instinct?... like the instinct to be shy?
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: We have different ways of coping with life ... could be withdrawing for a bit, taking stock or being shy ... I think it is natural if not interfered with goals and stuff.
    Calvino Rabeni: I suppose we'd consider cats natural. Their startle reflex is a lot like humans'.
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh Calvino, you are here ...
    Eliza Madrigal: So then what is it when we are able to open up? Not deny our instincts but somehow transcend the limitedness of them?
    Calvino Rabeni: present
    Gaya Ethaniel: Because I guess sometimes being shy can hinder things we want to do?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't know if you feel that way though Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: yes definitely Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: But I think it's good to see it as a natural way to respond as one is now before attempting to open up. Otherwise, it's like building a house on sand.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes agree
    Eliza Madrigal: Go on?
    Gaya Ethaniel: A lot of self-criticism and fantasising ... saps energy.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think for me that's the case.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes yes..
    Eliza Madrigal: brb
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: thinking rns countr to reflexes, then it saps energy
    Gaya Ethaniel: So naturalness is useful for accepting where one is maybe ... hm ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: rns countr?
    Calvino Rabeni: runs counter as in "at cross purposes"
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Eliza Madrigal: This part of Mitsu's comments last week seems to fit well here :
    Eliza Madrigal: Mitsu Ishii: it's as though it "wants" to operate differently, but I am engaging in a habit of preventing it from naturally settling into a different rhythm so the most I do is open myself to the possibility, via view as well as practice, but not in an active way trying to make something happen (but also not passive in terms of waiting for something to happen, either)
    Calvino Rabeni: good word rhythm
    Eliza Madrigal: so he seems to see the opening up as natural if nothing acts to prevent it?
    Eliza Madrigal: I hope I'm not stretching his words
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Guess it's similar to how I sometimes try let things to take own course ... let them play out rather than interfering out of anxiety.
    Eliza Madrigal nods...let the pot simmer
    Calvino Rabeni: simmer is a slow rhythm
    Wol Euler: ((I'm sorry, I am falling alseep at my desk. Goodnight all, take care.))
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Wol :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Wol:)
    Timbo Quan: night Wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: Trick for me is not being simmered in the pot :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: Watch it simmer :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Rahana Halostar: Excuse me, I'm having technical difficulties. Good bye.
    Eliza Madrigal: watched pot never boils?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Rahana :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Rahana :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Rahana
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh that fits Eliza :)
    Calvino Rabeni: how wouldyou interpret tha idiom
    Eliza Madrigal: let it be...let it be...
    Eliza Madrigal: Hummmm
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have you ever made porridge? Watch and stir ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh or risotto
    Eliza Madrigal: takes such patience
    Gaya Ethaniel: If you are a Scot, use a wooden spoon ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed Eliza
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Why if you are a Scot?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not going to get upset about the work ... if it brings up a lovely risotto afterwards :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh, yes... the time is worth it
    Gaya Ethaniel: Apparently that's THE way [according to Scottish people].
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Then there is a debate over clockwise and anti-clockwise movements >.<
    Gaya Ethaniel: Irish people bothered about making porridge too?
    Eliza Madrigal: I do use wooden spoons... but hm... not sure about the stirring... will have to watch. haha
    Scathach Rhiadra: oh yes:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: How do the Irish make porridge?
    Scathach Rhiadra: the traditional way, slowly:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Cooking as meditation ... hm ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: slowly :D
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, which makes me want to recommend a film again "How to Cook Your Life"
    Gaya Ethaniel: I should remember this whenever I feel impatient ... do I want burnt or nicely cooked porridge :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Great, I will look up!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, It was on IFC a few months ago... really liked it
    Eliza Madrigal: There is a little poem at the end that I love. May I share it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Calvino called being shy ect as reflexes. I think that makes sense.
    Eliza Madrigal nods, definitely
    Calvino Rabeni: well reflexes should not be thought as intrinsically limited. like automatisms
    Eliza Madrigal: hm
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I guess when it becomes a habit, that's when it is limiting.
    Scathach Rhiadra: habitual tendencies maybe?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Gaya Ethaniel: snap Scath :)
    Eliza Madrigal: stuck in loops of behavior
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... how do you know when a reflex become a habit in one's behaviour?
    Eliza Madrigal: stagnation?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I normally feel uncomfortable when I'm trying to go against what is the best I can do even though limiting from another's point of view.
    Calvino Rabeni: well when you didn't notice it happening, perhaps
    Scathach Rhiadra: a repeating pattern?
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Let's take being shy again. This may repeat for a long or may never change much.
    Gaya Ethaniel: long while*
    Eliza Madrigal: I had a kind of spurt of boldness, and now feel settled... not unshy, but happier in the shyness
    Eliza Madrigal: friendlier toward it, as Stim might say :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Clearing space ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or ... making some space ...?
    Eliza Madrigal nods...breathing room, circulation
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: opposite of stagnation
    Gaya Ethaniel: So I guess seeing what one has as natural and embrace it fully would lead to the next step towards making space.
    Calvino Rabeni: friendlier - that's good
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm, yes Gaya...lead naturally to the next step, as it were
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :D
    Eliza Madrigal: OK, want to hear the poem... last call to say NO
    Gaya Ethaniel listens.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I posted this at PaB once... but I love it so much....from that film. It is called "Little Duck"
    Eliza Madrigal: Now we are going to take a look at something special
    It is a duck riding the ocean
    a hundred feet beyond the surf,
    and he cuddles in the swells.
    There is a big heaving in the Atlantic.
    And he is part of it.
    He can rest while the Atlantic heaves,
    because he rests in the Atlantic.
    Probably he doesn’t know how large the ocean is.
    And neither do you.
    But he realises it.
    And what does he do, I ask you.
    He sits down in it.
    He reposes in the immediate as if it were infinity; which it is.
    That is religion, and the duck has it.
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: heh :D
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel eats the duck.
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Gaya Ethaniel: Who's the poet?
    Eliza Madrigal: In the film, the man says his mother scribbled it... might not have been written by her...
    Eliza Madrigal: so it becomes anonymous I think :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :) ty
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night everyone :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go, good night all:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Scath :)
    Timbo Quan: night all

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