2009.09.24 - Workshop 29

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    The following is the transcript of the workshop for 24th September 2009.

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza and Eliza :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Scath, Gaya, Yakuzza
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, connection problems today?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No only at PaB when it gets busy.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim, Pila
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Pila
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm ok at other places ty :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim and Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: happy first Thursday of the season
    Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Eliza, Scathach, Pila, Yakuzza
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: "of the season"?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Dao
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Dao
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
    Pila Mulligan: after the equinx -- there is a new season depending on the hemisphere it's spring or autumn :)
    Dao Yheng: hi again!
    Stim Morane: Hi Dao!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: +-----------------------------------------------------------
    Yakuzza Lethecus: -*+
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is everyone well?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sry keyboard issue
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes ty, and you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good thank you :)
    Stim Morane: fine, the usual
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, well thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: so have we still got some perspectives on codependent arising to explore or discuss?
    Pila Mulligan: where is Fefonz :)
    Gaya Ethaniel whispers. Thanks for the video link Dao. Enjoyed it very much.
    Dao Yheng: I almost posted bruce lee playing ping pong with nunchucks but maybe everyone's already seen that one!
    Stim Morane: Is there really such a thing?
    Dao Yheng: there is -- brb
    Stim Morane: So ... No homework this past week.
    Dao Yheng: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqGQ72bre30 -- click on it later
    Eliza Madrigal: I was interested Scath's question from last week. Did you all discuss that when I had computer issues?
    Stim Morane: Thanks, Dao
    Pila Mulligan: rofl
    Pila Mulligan: that is beautiful Dao
    Stim Morane: regarding the question by Scathach ... I don't think we really discussed it.
    Stim Morane: Are you still holding that question, Scathach?
    Stim Morane: Would you like to discuss it ?
    Scathach Rhiadra can't remember it:)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: I have really only mentioned three basic views of codependent arising. I basically stopped at the 3rd, that of the Yogacara group.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick
    Stim Morane: Hi Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Stim et all
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
    Dao Yheng: hi!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
    Mickorod Renard: soz I am late,,pc probs
    Stim Morane: And even then, all I said was that it involves seeing how all things arise in a mind-dependent way.
    Mickorod Renard: Yogacara ?
    Stim Morane: This is not really a very adequate description of what they were saying
    Stim Morane: Yes, it's a term you can find in Scathach's report 27 on the wiki
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Stim Morane: it basically just means "those who cultivate through the use of practice ['yoga']"
    Stim Morane: this may sound strange, but not all groups really emphasized sustained formal meditation practice to the extent that this and some other groups did.
    Stim Morane: There are many types of cultivation.
    Stim Morane: Anyway, no, we didn't really address that question.
    Stim Morane: this is related to a question Dao raised, about whether something is beyond codependent arising.
    Stim Morane: for instance, great compassion
    Stim Morane: a simple answer is, even if you find something that seems to be beyond codependent arising, the odds are that it still involves codependent arising.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel hesitates ... then giggles.
    Stim Morane: But it is also true, according to some advanced levels of teaching, that codependent arising is not centrally relevant in some aspects of the reality of interest to contemplatives
    Mickorod Renard: is wanting to feel loved and wanting to love, still included in codependnt arising?
    Stim Morane: we should note here, Mick, that there is nothing wrong with being "codependent".
    Stim Morane: It is not a put down.
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Stim Morane: It's not dismissive
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think the nature of co-dependent arising itself is weirdly wonderful.
    Mickorod Renard: yes, me too
    Stim Morane: anyway, my concerns are practice-related, centered on concrete contact or seeing.
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: so my question is, what do you see?
    Stim Morane: Gaya, it is rather wonderful and surprising too
    Stim Morane: liberating but not in the sense that it urges an exit
    Stim Morane: Perhaps it is time to find a new workshop topic ... I'm not sure it makes sense to try going further with codependent arising right now.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Because ... by seeing such, one is being inclusive?
    Stim Morane: yes, Gaya ... and any impulse to leave or transcend would also be subject to the same insight.
    Stim Morane: i.e., codependent arising
    Gaya Ethaniel nods ... yes I see.
    Mickorod Renard: for me its been an adventure, in a land full of cobwebs, I have been carefully pulling the webs away and at the baselne the only important thing to hang onto is that of mutual love towards each other
    Stim Morane: sounds good to me, Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: It helps one to be grounded in a way.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Mickorod Renard: the rest is full of pretences and desires
    Stim Morane: so are we ready to find a new topic? Or did some of you want to continue with codependent arising?
    Eliza Madrigal: At this point, whatever the topic is, seems this will be part of it...?
    Stim Morane: well, that is likely on the experiential side, yes, Eliza
    Stim Morane: it's a question of emphasis, I suppose
    Stim Morane: up to all of you ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: There is the word again, emphasis [stress] :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: a new topic could be good
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm. For me what I think I was interested in, in Scath's question, was 'suchness'...
    Stim Morane: is it a stressful word, Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder sometimes how many zillion ways of teaching this you have up your sleeve Stim :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: Eliza, can you say more about your interest?
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I am happy to stay with what we have done , yet I understand that a new topic may alow expansion in our understanding
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, as you mentioned last week or maybe the week before, 'ethics' comes up with the switch from maybe trying to understand, to integrating of insight... so re practice,
    Eliza Madrigal: it seems that this idea of 'suchness' is that... of focus ..
    Mickorod Renard: ethics is lovely, its so evocative and so diferently interpreted
    Eliza Madrigal: (not quite there to articulate clearly... but having to do with application and insight IN what we handle, etc
    Stim Morane: Suchness is an advanced point ... I was reluctant to try codepedent arising. Suchness would be related, but even more advanced.
    Pila Mulligan: while we are thinking about a topic, Dao's earlier Bruce Lee video link seems to show movements that defy science, it is closer to magic -- could this lead somewhere as a topic?
    Mickorod Renard: as with some negative aspects of co dependant, I find that I am wrong in my ethical operations sometimes due to complying with what is expected of me
    Stim Morane: I haven't seen the video yet, but it sounds enticing
    Stim Morane: yes, I see, Mick
    Eliza Madrigal: Of course I defer to your judgement Stim, but now I'm more interested :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Over last week, I've been thinking about 'naturalness' ...
    Stim Morane: if we take the notion of "suchness" and apply it on modest levels, like those pertaining to ethics, we can find a basis for appropriate and satisfying action in life.
    Stim Morane: Eliza, perhaps you could lead the way ...
    Stim Morane: and yes, naturalness is closely related to both ethics and suchness here
    Gaya Ethaniel whispers ... Eliza, we saw this danger in the last workshop. You ask Q, you also have to provide A.
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought I did just lead the way
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: It's all a question of what we can realistically practice, put into practice, based on this SL-type discussion.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mickorod Renard: we can do anything Stim,,have faith
    Stim Morane: I wish I felt so capable.
    Stim Morane: But I'm glad you do.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Mickorod Renard: satisfactory action i life would be good 4 me
    Stim Morane: The basic idea of suchness if that if you can see directly all of the constructions that frame ordinary reality, and release them to emptiness, then everything seen directly is sacred, self-liberating and even beyond the notion of liberation, meaningful beyond meanings, intensely present and fulfilling and also simultaneously unarisen.
    Mickorod Renard: I see I am trapped in what others expect of me, yet I want to be more clear of ethical indescretions
    Stim Morane: Is this what you are proposing to do for homework?
    Mickorod Renard: sorry
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: oh, sorry Mick
    Stim Morane: While I'm waiting for answers to my question, I'll respond to your comment, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: my fault..soz
    Stim Morane: It is precisely by seeing those expectations and their influence and "you" and the self defined by them as "you" that you are not trapped.
    Stim Morane: you are doing fine, moving through the chain towards release, Mick
    Eliza Madrigal: Well not exactly, but yes learning more about that and possibly doing homework if it was framed in smaller bits maybe...
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Stim Morane: another angle on suchness is that all things are within an original knowing presence and of that nature.
    Stim Morane: So all things are seen as reflective of a higher dimension of purity
    Eliza Madrigal: which is naturalness too?
    Stim Morane: you can see why codependent arising would be used as a challenge, preventing people from taking up suchness before they're ready
    Stim Morane: naturalness could be understood on many levels, Eliza
    Stim Morane: Not all of them are so daunting.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods, okay. Thank you :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not sure I'm ready to learn about suchness without some more practice ...
    Mickorod Renard: I need to look up suchness yet
    Stim Morane: I could teach naturalness without getting into all that advanced stuff
    Stim Morane: tathata = suchness
    Stim Morane: look up that term
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Stim Morane: But it won't help ...
    Stim Morane: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles.
    Mickorod Renard: ohh
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: this is a classic example of an untranslatable term
    Stim Morane: we need to consider that most of our words are rather prosaic in scope
    Stim Morane: and at least in my view, it's not the case that terms beyond that limited range, terms like tathata, are merely cultural ... like mythology
    Stim Morane: tathata is a pointer at something very real, but beyond any "meanings" or conventions or constructions
    Stim Morane: it's the center-piece of my own teaching
    Stim Morane: But it's not easy
    Mickorod Renard: would you have an example?
    Stim Morane: of tathata?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Mickorod Renard: of something we may relate to
    Mickorod Renard: yes, suchness
    Stim Morane: well ... yes and no
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you say we are now ready to do some sort of a regular practice Stim?
    Stim Morane: give me a sec Gaya and I'll catch up with you ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: np :)
    Stim Morane: Mick ... an example would be that you yourself, at some moments in your life, enjoy a presence that could be considered as just "ordinary, familiar stuff" like a food market or the face of an old person walking down the street.
    Stim Morane: But you sense that it's much more than that.
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Stim Morane: So the issue then is, could that fleeting perception be opened up?
    Stim Morane: Could it become everything?
    Mickorod Renard: I love that idea
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Stim Morane: me too
    Pila Mulligan notes Stim's comment 'it's the center-piece of my own teaching' and wonders why not let's jump into it then?
    Stim Morane: but i don't like promising too much ... i'm still learning how to use SL
    Stim Morane: feel free, Pila
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pila Mulligan: collectively, as a topic :)
    Stim Morane: ah
    Stim Morane: no
    Pila Mulligan: in conjunction with 'learning how to use sL'
    Mickorod Renard: I would love to get into it,,can you describe how you have managed it Stim?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I hope they can be ... opened up. Those moments are quite profound.
    Stim Morane: it was easy, Mick
    Stim Morane: I just spent my whole adult life working on it
    Stim Morane: Gaya, was there a practice you had in mind?
    Mickorod Renard: and what would one expect to find when it opens up?
    Stim Morane: completion
    Pila Mulligan: (where is Fenoz?:)
    Stim Morane: good q
    Gaya Ethaniel: eep ... again I fell for it.
    Mickorod Renard: so it is special then??
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: Gaya, I broke my promise. I'm very sorry.
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Stim Morane: I was really just wondering if you had a suggestion.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I've been doing wall-gazing since listening to your audio classes. Before I didn't sit in front of a wall ... I preferred the wall. That's what I've been doing, which is new.
    Stim Morane: Mick, that is an unanswerable question.
    Stim Morane: Mick ... is the essence of reality special?
    Mickorod Renard: I guess everything is special
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: and not
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think ... to understand what you teach, I need to commit to doing a regular practice but I'm not sure if all here wants to do formal meditation.
    Stim Morane: so far, Pila is going to do suchness, perhaps with Eliza, and Gaya is going with wall gazing ...
    Mickorod Renard: what would formal meditaion involve Gaya?
    Pila Mulligan: (and Scath, it was her idea:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Many things can be meditative for me ... but I like the simplicity of formal meditation, ie sitting etc.
    Stim Morane: oh, true, Pila
    Mickorod Renard: and can we formally meditate on suchness?
    Eliza Madrigal: YES! Scath's fault :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Scathach Rhiadra: leave me out of it please:)
    Stim Morane: It's always interesting how energetic people are
    Stim Morane: I'm so slow and lazy
    Mickorod Renard: maybe we need to learn how to be slow and lazy then
    Eliza Madrigal is now considering suchness is namaste
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: explain more, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: We greet one another constantly... "Namaste".. as the buddha nature in me bows to the buddha nature in you"... and that in all things...
    Stim Morane: I see
    Eliza Madrigal: completeness speaking to completeness
    Pila Mulligan: blessing
    Stim Morane: well, it's a gesture
    Eliza Madrigal: but representative of?
    Stim Morane: and that gesture is certainly quite related to or even motivated by the presence or fact of suchness.
    Stim Morane: But one can perform the gesture without seeing suchness in any very clear way.
    Stim Morane: STill, it's a very good thought.
    Stim Morane: yes, a blessing, too, as Pila suggests
    Mickorod Renard: its a lovely thought
    Gaya Ethaniel: For me often music often helps opening up to something more.
    Stim Morane: yes
    Pila Mulligan: nature, luck, magic, suchness -- are these related by any particular theme?
    Pila Mulligan: or idea?
    Mickorod Renard: for me, giving a few moments extra, to observe nd take in helps
    Stim Morane: suchness = final nature, or real nature
    Stim Morane: as for luck and magic ??
    Pila Mulligan: but is there a topic near here?
    Stim Morane: I recall your mentioning somethnig like this earlier, Pila
    Mickorod Renard: bruce lee
    Stim Morane: yes, Mick, it's a big help.
    Stim Morane: ?
    Stim Morane: I'll check the video ... :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's like Forest Gump playing ping pong.
    Gaya Ethaniel: More or less same thing :)
    Stim Morane: fast and machine-like?
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm like magic :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Stim Morane: He was more interested in pushing limits than in magic
    Gaya Ethaniel: Who?
    Stim Morane: Lee
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Stim Morane: he pushed too far, perhaps
    Pila Mulligan: there are a hundred statistically improbable conicidences in that video
    Stim Morane: ?
    Pila Mulligan: in a few minutes
    Eliza Madrigal: looks like magic from outside certainly
    Stim Morane: yes, I can imagine
    Gaya Ethaniel: He didn't learn about 'naturalness' properly maybe :P
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mickorod Renard: when I see something ,,suchness,,it makes me feel rather special, in that I am alone in the observation
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: are you sure, Mick?
    Stim Morane: I mean, re "alone"?
    Mickorod Renard: well, I may be halucinating
    Gaya Ethaniel: As in you see no one else noticing what you are seeing?
    Stim Morane: no I wasn't suggesting that
    Mickorod Renard: but I mean those I am with dont seem to notice
    Mickorod Renard: yes Gaya
    Stim Morane: my question was "are you sure 'you' are seeing?"
    Stim Morane: part of the point of suchness is that it isn't really seen by anyone in the ordinary sense
    Mickorod Renard: dont know I ca answer that Stim
    Stim Morane: I don't mean that it remains hidden
    Gaya Ethaniel: Time slows somewhat ...
    Stim Morane: just that it isn't seen "by me"
    Stim Morane: yes, that's possible, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Though fleeting
    Mickorod Renard: ahh
    Mickorod Renard: so is it something else that i am connected with that see's it
    Mickorod Renard: and so forth
    Stim Morane: yes, I understand
    Stim Morane: this brings us back to Gaya's question about practice
    Stim Morane: I would like to keep workshops here practice-based without emphasizing traditional practice regimens.
    Stim Morane: That is, focused and concrete, but not tied to on-going traditional style meditation.
    Stim Morane: I think the traditional practices would be difficult to handle properly in this sort of context.
    Stim Morane: So, we need some inspiration ...
    Stim Morane: Meanwhile, I will consider in my own less inspired way.
    Dao Yheng: ping pong
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Stim Morane: a favorite
    Stim Morane: can you play ping pong in SL?
    Scathach Rhiadra: probably:)
    Stim Morane: hmm
    Pila Mulligan: maybe for homework we should contemplates possible topics
    Stim Morane: how about naturalness?
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay, yes
    Gaya Ethaniel nods nods.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Pila Mulligan: maybe we should do naturalness :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Dao Yheng: I would like that
    Stim Morane: This would mean that we will move on to that as the workshop topic, not just as a homework within the current codependent arising topic.
    Stim Morane: IS that ok?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, sounds good:)
    Stim Morane: all right
    Gaya Ethaniel: Stim would you explain why you want this workshop to be free of traditional practice?
    Stim Morane: so the wiki would have to reflect that change ...
    Stim Morane: Gaya, I teach traditional contemplative, yogic, and other types of practices in rl
    Scathach Rhiadra: do you want to write a piece for the wiki maybe?
    Stim Morane: Scathach, I'll give you 200 words
    Stim Morane: by email
    Scathach Rhiadra: great:)
    Stim Morane: Gaya, I don't know to what extent even the simplest forms of such traditional practices fit sl.
    Stim Morane: The time frame alone is a serious factor.
    Stim Morane: People typically spend somewhere between 2 years and 30 years just learning to really see the basics.
    Stim Morane: I don't believe that would work here.
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I need the equivalent of a whole adult life to catch up
    Stim Morane: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. I understand.
    Eliza Madrigal: In SL we'd just be confirming we were on the same page and asking if there were specific questions about the meditation?
    Pila Mulligan: 1 year is agood start
    Stim Morane: I'm not saying you can't see the same "bottom line" points as come out of traditional training.
    Stim Morane: I'm just saying the traditional methods probably should be left as options here
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay
    Dao Yheng: I do find the writing assignments helpful -- maybe that's a starting point for a practice that would make sense here?
    Gaya Ethaniel: So you would consider suggesting as an option for some?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm being a pain sorry ... just that I'd work very hard without trying if it's given within the workshop :P
    Stim Morane: I'm looking for topics that can be explored in life, without special techniques.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: naturally
    Eliza Madrigal: yes your teachings and this workshop are such wonderful focus-ers
    Stim Morane: Gaya, I need to make provisions for people who have an interest such as you express.
    Stim Morane: when you introduce technique, you also pretty much guarantee that people will have to come to terms with issues intrinsic to the techniques.
    Stim Morane: I'm trying to minimize that problem
    Stim Morane: so for me, it's a question of making life the practice
    Stim Morane: we will approach naturalness along those lines.
    Stim Morane: ok?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok ty :)
    Stim Morane: thanks, everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you, Stim
    Gaya Ethaniel: I stop being a pest for now :P Thank you Stim.
    Stim Morane: Bye!
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou Stim
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Stim Morane: not at all, Gaya
    Pila Mulligan: bye and thanks
    Scathach Rhiadra: thank you Stim, good night:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: bye!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good day/night everyone :)
    Mickorod Renard: and thankyou every one,,sorry if I talked too much
    Gaya Ethaniel: You didn't Mick :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I did though, sorry
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Gaya Ethaniel waves.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye everyone. Thanks :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namasté:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste :)
    Mickorod Renard: Eliza, you didnt talk too much
    Mickorod Renard: nite Scath

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