2009.09.03 - Workshop 26

The following is a transcript of the workshop for September 3rd 2009.

Pila Mulligan: hi Scathach
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila and Scath :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you both?
Pila Mulligan: fins thanks
Scathach Rhiadra: ok, and you?
Pila Mulligan: fine*
Gaya Ethaniel: Not bad thanks :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Stim
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim!
Stim Morane: Hi Pila, Gaya, Scathach
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?
Stim Morane: OK, busy, hot, sleepy ... and you?
Gaya Ethaniel: Good thanks :)
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Are things getting less busy Stim or just the same?
Stim Morane: things are much more busy now ...
Stim Morane: I hardly exist
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: like the wicked witch in the wizard of oz, I'm melting away
Gaya Ethaniel nods ... :(
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza and Yakuzza :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila, Gaya, Yakuzza, Scath, Stim :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza, eliza
Stim Morane: Hi Eliza, Yakuzza
Pila Mulligan: hi Yak
Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
Stim Morane: Hi arabella
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Stim, Hiya everyone!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
Stim Morane: hi Mick
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick and Ara
Stim Morane: so, are we ready for an entirely new topic, or would you like to continue a little longer with dull old codependent arising?
Mickorod Renard: Hi Everyone
Mickorod Renard: yes please
Stim Morane: yes please, you want a new topic?
Scathach Rhiadra: um, what have you in mind for a new topic Stim?
Mickorod Renard: yes ok Stim
Eliza Madrigal: I feel like I'm just starting, but I felt that way with ethics
Stim Morane: I'm not saying a have one, I'm just asking ...
Stim Morane: *I have one
Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)
Gaya Ethaniel owns up listening to Stim's audio files on Ethics :)
Stim Morane: It's tricky, obviously
Stim Morane: oh, that's cheating, Gaya!
Stim Morane: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well only got up to 4 of them Stim, a lot to think over.
Stim Morane: my challenge is to figure out what works in sl
Eliza Madrigal really hopes listening to audios is not really cheating..hah
Stim Morane: and how ...
Mickorod Renard: yes, I think ethics may be a good one Stim
Pila Mulligan: and there (what works) we are still learning
Stim Morane: i highly recommend cheating
Gaya Ethaniel laughs!
Pila Mulligan: hi Dao
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Dao Yheng: hi
Stim Morane: spiritual practice is so long-term and challenging, that you have to cheat whenever possible
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Dao
arabella Ella: :)
Dao Yheng: sorry so clumsy!
Stim Morane: Hi Dao
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
Stim Morane: anyway ... for now ...
Stim Morane: I have read and greatly appreciate the reports on our wiki from Eliza and Gaya. I am not sure yet if I have comments on these pieces or not ... I'm still considering that. Meanwhile, does anyone else have comments about them?
Mickorod Renard: well,,to be honest, I havnt read them,,sorry
Stim Morane: I found both pieces quite interesting, but need to consider them more.
Stim Morane: Oh, I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, Mick
Mickorod Renard: but I do feel bad about not reading them,,
Stim Morane: Gaya, what is the shadow you referred to?
Yakuzza Lethecus: is there only for me so much lag in sl right now ?
arabella Ella: lag for me too
Stim Morane: I'm not getting any lag, yet ...
Scathach Rhiadra: it is ok for me
Stim Morane: Dao, are your experiencing system lag?
Stim Morane: *you experiencing
Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... persistent habitual patterns or nagging selves. In this case, "I'm not good enough."
Stim Morane: Ah, I see
Stim Morane: so do you see ways to apply the codependent arising teaching to that?
Stim Morane: I mean, _really_ apply
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... I see various seeds left in the past. Also I saw how one of them were triggered. Some people reflect that tendency of mine [they have something similar] and I react to them. I realise at those times I have to turn the focus towards myself.
Gaya Ethaniel: Rather than worry about the external interactions/events.
Stim Morane: well, it's not like you're doing anything wrong ... it's just a matter of realizing that you're being tricked a bit, or going along with a view of yourself that's not fair to you
Stim Morane: Eliza, does this relate to what you were calling "empty threats"?
Eliza Madrigal: yes very much so
Eliza Madrigal: if I 'react' to a kind of outward production of things, I can get stuck there
Stim Morane: it's a bit of a stretch, since one's sense of self is not exactly a threat
Stim Morane: but I see ...
Gaya Ethaniel nods ... I bought into them many times before.
Stim Morane: yes, we all do.
Stim Morane: in fact, if we didn't, it could truly be said we are enlightened!
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Mickorod Renard: can these negative issues be driven by outside forces too Stim?
Eliza Madrigal: there's come a sense for me of letting things run course a bit... trusting more and more that they will
Gaya Ethaniel: uh ... give us an enlightenment now or money back Stim :P
Stim Morane: we're all laboring under various false characterizations
Stim Morane: good, i'm glad, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thank you
Stim Morane: Gaya, give me the money first!
Gaya Ethaniel: ooops
arabella Ella: :)
Stim Morane: I just got paid $20 linden dollars.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: That's the most money I've made in the last several weeks.
Stim Morane: Thanks!
Pila Mulligan: less than you deserve :)
Mickorod Renard: lol, I cant afford this
Stim Morane: drinks are on me
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh [thanks I will pay back later drop me an IM]
Stim Morane: anyway, Gaya, I can guarantee that it's good for you to see what You're buying in to ...
Stim Morane: brb, sorry
Stim Morane: back
Pila Mulligan: wb
Gaya Ethaniel: Unfortunately I'm feeling fed up with this particular theif ... though I'm trying to be nice towards myself.
Stim Morane: yeah, I know the feeling
Stim Morane: that's a funny feature of meditation practice
Stim Morane: one gets the idea of one's sticking points and patterns LONG before one can deal with them
Stim Morane: so you get rather fed up with them
Stim Morane: this is why I recommend going to movies
arabella Ella: you do?
Stim Morane: it jumps you out of these stuck places, and self-criticism, for a while
Stim Morane: yes, definitely
Stim Morane: you don't like movies, ara?
Pila Mulligan: they can be mind-altering :)
arabella Ella: i love both movies and fiction (books)
Gaya Ethaniel: I went today :) My friend who is expecting very shortly was an advantage to have around. People make ways.
Stim Morane: ah, good. Of course, it's a matter of everything in moderation.
Stim Morane: so ... I get the impression that we need to become more focused, and that this will involve more specific homework.
Gaya Ethaniel: Isn't it an escape though?
Pila Mulligan: fiction?
Gaya Ethaniel: Or you mean as a break?
Stim Morane: movies are a disconnect, definitely
Stim Morane: but that can be either a problem or a chance to let go, temporarily
Stim Morane: spiritual practice shouldn't be a grind
Stim Morane: yes, Gaya, a break.
Gaya Ethaniel: Once I came out of a cinema and felt displaced [was shocked to find I was not in Korea] ... guess that's what you mean.
arabella Ella: fiction takes your mind off other stuff but it also acts as a trigger for new ideas and for problem solving
Stim Morane: of course, the only way we can really take a break is to "let go" in a profound way ...
arabella Ella: and during movies or fiction the mind is often in the incubation phase
arabella Ella: :)
Stim Morane: yes, I do too, ara
arabella Ella: yes Eliza
Stim Morane: movies are more immediately coercive or effective in switching perspectives, fiction/reading is more of an investment perhaps
Stim Morane: so about that homework ...
Stim Morane: what are the rest of you working with lately?
arabella Ella: ah ... voice on Skype ... thanks to Gaya
arabella Ella: (could not resist)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: yeah, I need to get that going too
arabella Ella: and it is working very nicely i must admit
Stim Morane: good
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you really ... I just wanted to have more of WoK :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
arabella Ella: :)
Stim Morane: that was another question I had: how is that group session going?
Stim Morane: i.e., what sorts of things are coming up there?
Eliza Madrigal: Last week was excellent
arabella Ella: i gues we are providing support for each other and helping each other to clarify issues
Eliza Madrigal: we talked a bit about ethics in practical application
Stim Morane: creat
arabella Ella: not sure what the others think
Stim Morane: great
Stim Morane: I'm interested in hearing more ...
arabella Ella: initially it was getting accustomed to the system ... to using voice
arabella Ella: now we seem to have overcome that and seem to be moving on to more serious related topics
Mickorod Renard: I can only say I liked very much the feeling of well being from the good company
arabella Ella: co dependent arising, ethics, etc
Pila Mulligan: maybe someone can help Stim set up Skype and we can all try it
Eliza Madrigal: yes, agree with ara and mick... very supportive
arabella Ella: we could also consider using voice on SL if you wish?
Stim Morane: I'm glad to hear about the support
arabella Ella: it is another option i guess
Pila Mulligan: I am unable to do that well, ara :)
Pila Mulligan: SL voice
Stim Morane: switching to voice in sl should be a decision made with some care, I guess
arabella Ella: ah i see
Gaya Ethaniel: Simpe Stim - just download the app here http://www.skype.com/ and let me know of your username.
Stim Morane: thanks, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
Gaya Ethaniel: We talked a bit about recording sessions and posting them onto wiki.
Stim Morane: so you're meeting in sl or outside of it?
Stim Morane: I don't quite get the picture
Scathach Rhiadra: in SL
Stim Morane: ah
Gaya Ethaniel: No need to be in SL though
Pila Mulligan: and outside also :)
arabella Ella: we first meet on SL
Stim Morane: where are you meeting in sl?
Pila Mulligan: I can do one at a time :)
arabella Ella: then we open skype
arabella Ella: another program
arabella Ella: and then use voice on skype so we then dont have to be on SL when using skype
Gaya Ethaniel: It's a place we meet on Sundays. Let me give you landmark Stim.
Scathach Rhiadra: we meet in Gaya's place
Stim Morane: I see, thanks.
Scathach Rhiadra: and it is a very nice place too:)
Gaya Ethaniel: But the whole session can be done without logging onto SL.
Stim Morane: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm testing recording and seems to be working fine.
Stim Morane: do you think being in sl helps?
Pila Mulligan: however, Skype has text chat in addition to voice (at the same time0
Scathach Rhiadra: but I think it would not be the same, just like a phone call maybe?
Eliza Madrigal: It is an added element, sure
Pila Mulligan: Skype lacks the animation, or avi identitiy
Gaya Ethaniel: Some people who have used SL for a long time tend to prefer seeing AVs as well as voice.
Stim Morane: yes, I can imagine
Scathach Rhiadra: also you can use all functions of SL at the same time
Stim Morane: ok, well, OK, I'll consider the question of using voice in our sessions here.
Stim Morane: I'm a bit hesitant, but we'll see.
Mickorod Renard: try sunday evening first Stim
Mickorod Renard: at Gaya's
Gaya Ethaniel: I think Stim's schedule is pretty full ...
Mickorod Renard: ohh,soz
arabella Ella: am i being forward if i ask why you are hesitant Stim?
arabella Ella: maybe we could overcome your hesitation?
Stim Morane: would our using voice be a barrier to new people joining?
Pila Mulligan: yes and no :0
Gaya Ethaniel: I remember Pema saying that a while ago and Stim is busier now so ... :)
arabella Ella: depends what we want
Stim Morane: true, ara
Eliza Madrigal: that is a question I have too, because some aren't comfortable with voice
Eliza Madrigal: lessens a sense of anonimity?
Stim Morane: yes, that's another issue
arabella Ella nods
Dao Yheng: I also find that I have different things to say in voice versus text
Stim Morane: yes, Dao
Gaya Ethaniel: So we talked about making the wiki private - grant access to regulars only.
arabella Ella: but i think many of us have heard bits and pieces of your podcasts on line Stim so we know your voice :)
Stim Morane: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Scath explained the techie side of things :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Stim Morane: did you have further comments, Dao?
Scathach Rhiadra: making the wiki private you mean?
Dao Yheng: I'm a wiki lurker, and have enjoyed reading the transcripts
Gaya Ethaniel: People who are uncomfortable can choose to type in Skype instead of speaking ...?
Eliza Madrigal: yes this is true
Gaya Ethaniel: I'd be willing to type up the session.
Gaya Ethaniel: [For Stim's not Sundays]
Eliza Madrigal: Hi again Maisie
Stim Morane: great phrase, wiki lurker ... I'm learning all sorts of strange things here.
Pila Mulligan: hi Maisie
Stim Morane: I see ...
Stim Morane: Hi Maisie
Stim Morane: welcome
Gaya Ethaniel giggles.
arabella Ella: perhaps we should ask those you are here who have not yet atended the voice sessions whether they are comfortable with voice?
Eliza Madrigal: it is the nature of the place
Scathach Rhiadra: if the homework becomes more focused would we want it more private?
Yakuzza Lethecus: when are you going to meet on sundays ?
arabella Ella: 11pm your time Yak
Maisie Fonda: Hi everyone!
arabella Ella: after PaB
Stim Morane: take a poll: voice or not?
Gaya Ethaniel: If you want notices for Sundays - pls IM for group invite.
Gaya Ethaniel: IM me*
arabella Ella: voice
Yakuzza Lethecus whispers voice *but i don´t attend here often*
Gaya Ethaniel: [also those wiki lurkers who are reading this]
Stim Morane: other votes?
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, what are we voting on?
Eliza Madrigal does not have a strong opinion on the subject at all
Eliza Madrigal: either way is great
Stim Morane: voice or chat here in our cafe meetings, I think, Scath
Scathach Rhiadra: ah ty:)
Scathach Rhiadra: voice
Mickorod Renard: voice is fine by me ,,
Scathach Rhiadra is tired typing:)
arabella Ella: me too :)
Dao Yheng: sounds like if there is voice, there can be text as well? In that case voice sounds good
Stim Morane: I know the feeling
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes, true.... get to hear far more from Scath which is great
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: yes, Dao
Gaya Ethaniel: I prefer voice ... people who are normally quiet here speak :)
Stim Morane: that's interesting
Yakuzza Lethecus: and we can even close our eyes while participating :)
arabella Ella: if i may make a suggestion
arabella Ella: in an attempt not to eliminate newcomers
Stim Morane: I had thought text would encourage more shy peopleto join in
arabella Ella: we could perhaps have first 10 mins as intro with chat then move on to voice
Scathach Rhiadra: depends how fast you type, in some cases!
Stim Morane: OK, well it looks like I need to get skype set up
arabella Ella: and offer a notecard to newcomers to explain things
Stim Morane: yes, good point, ara
Stim Morane: OK, we'll annouce this in advance of next week's meeting
Mickorod Renard: will the voice be on skype,,just reminding myself?
Mickorod Renard: ohh yes
Gaya Ethaniel: mhm so Pila can join in :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: ähm i thought skype is only in that sunday group
Mickorod Renard: great
Stim Morane: back to homework ...
Eliza Madrigal listens
Stim Morane: :)
arabella Ella: we are discussing whether we should use voice via Skype here too Yak
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and SL voice has too much feedback when there are many people using it
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Stim Morane: it's hard for me to know what kind of homework exercise is right for all of you at this stage re codependent arising ... so let's have a brief chat about what you do understand, so i can get some ideas for homework.
Stim Morane: Suppose that you are working in your ordinary life with the general topic of codependent arising.
Stim Morane: Imagine, then, that we have a specific homework assignment of seeing what's going on with instances of anger, depression or fear.
Stim Morane: Tell me: based on your current understanding, what sorts of things would you expect to notice re these three states, as examples of codependent arising?
Stim Morane: No, this is not a quiz, and there are no grades. I'm just looking for feedback ...
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Eliza Madrigal: levels or instances of courage maybe
arabella Ella: seems like regardless of your reassurance we all feel we are being tested :)
Scathach Rhiadra: if I can catch myself reacting before getting lost in the emotion maybe
arabella Ella: or shy?
Mickorod Renard: vulnerability?
Stim Morane: yes, good, Scathach ... and I do understand, arabella, Mick
Eliza Madrigal nods
Stim Morane: But I need some guidance
arabella Ella nods
Eliza Madrigal: For me I'd like to see instances of immediacy... or stepping out of typical responses
Dao Yheng: the main thing I notice is just that certain thoughts and emotions and even memories are not accessible when I'm very upset or angry
Stim Morane: obviously some of you have written several reports, and in fact I found all of those very insightful
Stim Morane: oh, that's interesting, Dao
Stim Morane: that is a main point, for sure
Mickorod Renard: perhaps a desire to control?
Stim Morane: it applies to higher perspectives on what we really are too
Stim Morane: yes, mic
Stim Morane: mick
arabella Ella: i see it as a sort of meta cognitive thinking linked with feelings of dissonance ... that things are not in synch ... and trying to get out of the grip by looking at oneself from outside and above the immediate emotions
Stim Morane: i see, ara
Stim Morane: does that work?
arabella Ella: it may ... depends on how much effort is put into it
Stim Morane: yes
Stim Morane: well, re that ...
arabella Ella: or how far one has let oneself get into the habit or grip
Stim Morane: you are taking a good, traditional approach
Stim Morane: it will help ... the real question for the longer term is: will it turn into direct insight re the dissonant stuff?
Mickorod Renard: I think if there was no risk of being effected by whatever then the emotions would not be needed
Gaya Ethaniel: If I see those emotions arising, I usually look for goer ... then try to see going. Gone to is the state/emotion so usually spotted before this stage. But not always in this order ... This process helps preventing going through the whole motions to speak.
Stim Morane: it's in direct insight re codependent arising that freedom is found
Stim Morane: yes, I see, Gaya
Stim Morane: you must be getting good at that! :)
arabella Ella: with practice it will work i guess ... but one must do it over and over again to search and reflect for insights and new perspectives
Stim Morane: yes, that's true, ara
Stim Morane: it takes a lot of practice
arabella Ella: yes
Stim Morane: in that way, though, gradually the kinds of techniques you mention gradually become direct insight.
Stim Morane: The mind changes!
arabella Ella: deliberate focussed reflective practice
Dao Yheng: "direct insight re codependent arising that freedom is found" -- I must admit, I don't know what that means :)
Stim Morane: it becomes able to function in a new way.
Stim Morane: oh Dao, I'm too old to be beaten up so late in the session.
Stim Morane: have mercy
Stim Morane: :)
Dao Yheng: sorry, just being honest :)
Stim Morane: yes, I know. Thanks!
Mickorod Renard: I am ok if I feel that I will not be effected ,,therefore I walk through the offending thing,,in which case there is no co dependant problem,,I wish I could feel non effected all the time
Stim Morane: Mick ... being affected by life is hugely important
Mickorod Renard: yes, in a positive way
Gaya Ethaniel shakes her head. I'm not getting good at it yet ... do have episodes but they are much milder even if I don't catch myself.
Stim Morane: the problem comes in when we tie ourselves up with bogus affects or states or judgments
Mickorod Renard: I see,,yes
Stim Morane: the goal is not to avoid being affected, it's to be truly available and accessible
Stim Morane: to feel life as it is, and not as our habits dictate
Stim Morane: thru this practice, one becomes much more "affected"
Stim Morane: not less
Stim Morane: this is a good thing
Stim Morane: back to Dao's q: direct insight re codependent arising that freedom is found
Gaya Ethaniel: Even if I don't catch myself before ... I don't get as angry as before for example.
Stim Morane: codependent arising is something that can be thought about, considered etc., or it can be seen more directly
Stim Morane: the former is good, the latter is truly liberating
Stim Morane: because, the latter shows that the very things that bind us up are themselves "empty" or "open"
Stim Morane: so we are free
Stim Morane: we don't have to struggle with the habitual framings etc., we can really let go
Mickorod Renard: how lovely,,I think you have reminded me of feeling that once before Stim
arabella Ella: by 'empty' do you also imply the futility of certain habits or certain emotional situations like anger?
Dao Yheng: I do smetimes have a sense for "the latter shows that the very things that bind us up are themselves "empty" or "open""
Gaya Ethaniel: How to include though ... just see and not reject?
Gaya Ethaniel: I mean how not to use them*
Stim Morane: start with something simple, Gaya
Stim Morane: something you can get perspective on
Stim Morane: most of the things we're bound up by are invisible to us
Stim Morane: start with an easy case, concrete, palpable, study-able
Stim Morane: something you can modulate
Stim Morane: i.e., loosen a bit
Gaya Ethaniel: I wish I know what that can be Stim ...
Stim Morane: Well, I was suggesting anger
Stim Morane: or impatience
Gaya Ethaniel: These tendencies I mentioned are a complex bundle to me.
Stim Morane: or being self-critical
Stim Morane: OK, I see, gaya
Stim Morane: well, you need an easier case, then
Gaya Ethaniel: With being impatient I just start with breathing, try to be aware if I'm 'breathing'.
Stim Morane: OK, take that, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Stim Morane: even "I'm breathing" can be seen in the light of this teaching
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... yes, there you throw another thread in!
Stim Morane: there are many things we do, out of habit, in "I'm breathing now" that are actually unnecessary, or limiting, or obscuring of freshness or inclusiveness
Stim Morane: start with "I'm breathing", then open it up
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Stim Morane: is that a homework exercise?
Scathach Rhiadra: sounds like it:)
Eliza Madrigal: Okay
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: And to see a movie?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: yes, and see a movie too ...
Stim Morane: people in the past did exactly this, for years, in the mountains or in monasteries, and found incredible things
Maisie Fonda: Thanks for letting me sit in on such an interesting discussion.
Stim Morane: especially when you get stuck or feel too dry
Gaya Ethaniel: Have a good day Maisie :)
Stim Morane: Maisie you are always welcome
Stim Morane: time to go ...
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Maisie, nice to meet you
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Stim
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Maisie
Stim Morane: bye, everyone
Maisie Fonda: Many thanks - see you all again, lovely to meet you all.
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Stim. Have a good day :)
Mickorod Renard: thanks Stim,I like this topic
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Stim, thank you:)
Pila Mulligan: bye for now
Stim Morane: thanks, you too
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now everyone... wonderful session
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks
Mickorod Renard: goodnight Stim
arabella Ella: thanks Stim bye
Gaya Ethaniel: Good day/night everyone :)
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all:)
arabella Ella: fraid i must go nite everyone c u Sun night