2009.05.14 - Workshop 13

The following is a transcript of the workshop held Thursday May 14th 2009

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stim, Scath, Mick, Fefonz :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz, Mick, Pila
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Pila
Stim Morane: Hi Scathach, Eliza, Mick, Fefonz, Pila
Fefonz Quan: hi Scath, Eliza, Pila, Stim
Mickorod Renard: Hi Stim, Scath, Pila, Eliza
Pila Mulligan: hi everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Aurel, Hi
aurel Miles: Hello Everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Aurel, Gaya
Mickorod Renard: hi Gaya
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Gaya :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Gaya
Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Aurel
aurel Miles: Hello Stim, thank you for this workshop
Stim Morane: thank you!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: I guess we'll wait another minute or two ...
Mickorod Renard: yes,, I like this workshop too Stim
Mickorod Renard: Hi Aurora
Stim Morane: Frankly, that surprises me. (Perhaps I shouldn't admit it)
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aurora :)
Pila Mulligan: eh, Stim, no ka oi (nothing is better :)
aurel Miles: hello Aurora
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Aurora
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aurora
Aurora Kitaj: Hello everyone, so nice to see you all:)
Fefonz Quan: ello Aurora
Aurora Kitaj: smiles
Stim Morane: Hi Aurora
Aurora Kitaj: Hello everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eeveryone
Aurora Kitaj: brb
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
aurel Miles: Hi Yakuzza
Mickorod Renard: hi Yaku
Stim Morane: Hi Yakuzza
Stim Morane: OK, well it's time ...
Fefonz Quan: Hey Yak
Stim Morane: I'm sorry if any of you are here for the first time. Hopefully our emphasis here won't be too incomprehensible.
Stim Morane: Last week I was pressing for some volunteers to work on an extended version of the traditional ethical precept of "no intoxicants". I loosened the precept a bit by paraphrasing it: “no immoderate use of potentially intoxicating things”.
Stim Morane: I also pointed out that one could broaden and deepen the interpretation of this particular precept, as I’ve tried to do here with the others. And it is particularly in that extended sense that this precept concerning "intoxication" acquires a profound meaning.
Stim Morane: Re this, my comment was that EVERYTHING in life can be the occasion for a problematical kind of intoxication, a "looking away" from your enlightened nature. This is "unawakeness" with respect to the real.
Stim Morane: So in saying that, I was defining "intoxication" in a way that's especially meaningful to contemplatives, people interested in awakening to a higher sense of what is most directly real and significant. And indeed, someone could use this understanding of the precept AS their approach to contemplation.
aurel Miles: boy that's for sure.
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: Do you want to elaborate, aurel?
aurel Miles: i talk too much already Stim
aurel Miles: and that is my indulgence sometimes
Stim Morane: I hadn't noticed ...
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: I know Fefonz volunteered to explore this over the past 7 days, but the others who expressed a willingness to work with the idea also mentioned some qualifications, time constraints etc ...
Stim Morane: OK
Stim Morane: Fefonz, is it OK to start with you?
Fefonz Quan: yes, ok
Stim Morane: thanks
Stim Morane: Please go ahead
Fefonz Quan: i apologize for not posting a summay of the exploration, but pointing to a long conversation i had yesterday about it.
Fefonz Quan: So maybe i can say somethings here in (more ) short way
Stim Morane: OK
Fefonz Quan: COntemplating intoxications, i thoughts of some levels of toxicatin as i experience them, though i can;t say i avoided them this week.
Stim Morane: :)
Fefonz Quan: one time i aovided a glass of wine, one time just forgot and didn;t
Stim Morane: Is that the short report?
Fefonz Quan: i thought why wine is intoxicating
Stim Morane: Yes?
Fefonz Quan: sure, on the physical level it has some effect, but chocolate, pasta and even bread have that too
Fefonz Quan: so i see two ways: one is that it is addictive to some people
Fefonz Quan: and addiction can surely be regarded and intox.
Fefonz Quan: second, it ahas a strong influence on teh way we see teh world
Fefonz Quan: So, it 'artificialy' - and i think this is a key point here - changes our perception
Eliza Madrigal nods
aurel Miles: i have a question
Fefonz Quan: so the intoxicatin is a distortion of our 'seeing'
Fefonz Quan: sure
Fefonz Quan: then, as you can see also in teh dialogue, i thought about less obvious things:
aurel Miles: is it ever possible to make use of that occasional, mild form of intoxication to open up doors of perception? (as in the peyote ceremonies practiced int the south)
aurel Miles: does deliberation alter the outcome?
Fefonz Quan: our computer, reding news, the internet - emails, - all have some intoxicatin of the mind n them
Stim Morane: Yes
Stim Morane: That's my primary concern
Fefonz Quan: (i think it is interesting aurel, but maybe get to it later?)
aurel Miles: sure
Stim Morane: so did you find many things in your ordinary life to be intoxicating in this sense?
Fefonz Quan: sure, emails, too much reading of news on teh net (have no TV)
Fefonz Quan: for example, i see internet intoxication in two ways:
Fefonz Quan: one - it is addictive ni a way, hence saw habitual bad seeds
Fefonz Quan: two - some of teh things you see are violent, argumentative, rude (talk back responses - so many verbal pison)
Fefonz Quan: poison*
Tarmel Udimo: Are we talking about only one form of intoxication?
Fefonz Quan: cell phones - toxicate not only the holder - by being available and alert all the time - but also the environment, which here all those private talks
Tarmel Udimo: waht about intoxication with Being/Spirit?
Stim Morane: Tarmel, we did admit last week that there is this more positive meaning
Stim Morane: So that's something we'll want to keep in mind.
Tarmel Udimo: ohhh sorry missed that:)
Fefonz Quan: mean spiritual intoxication?
Stim Morane: But the precept is against the "unawakeness" that may ensure
Stim Morane: *ensue
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Fefonz Quan: maybe one last different thing - teh issue of anger - is it intoxication be itself, ?
Stim Morane: absolutely
Eliza Madrigal: it is surely something that runs away with you
Fefonz Quan: i didn't know, because first - the effect of it is very much like toxic
Stim Morane: it blocks out every other perspective except that which feeds the anger
Stim Morane: anger likes to be angry
Fefonz Quan: but i feel it as coming spontanously, so i don't 'choose' to take it in a way
Stim Morane: say more?
Fefonz Quan: so in that case i wasn't sure that i 'consume' it intentionally, just effected by it.
Stim Morane: This is tricky ...
Fefonz Quan: and if it is - burst of joy - are tehy pure and not toxicating?
Fefonz Quan: they*
Stim Morane: anger is a natural response, and in that sense, not objectionable per se
Stim Morane: But natural responses can themselves run to excess, so they obscure more than they celebrate or reveal
Fefonz Quan nods
Stim Morane: even "joy" can be intoxicating in this problematical sense
Tarmel Udimo: anger can be very effective in cutting through certain situations
Stim Morane: Hence the injunction in the Tao Te Ching to conduct your victories as funerals
Eliza Madrigal: but can also be a compulsion
Stim Morane: Tarmel, I agree with you.
Stim Morane: But perhaps we could call that "wrath"
Stim Morane: ... distinguishing it from "anger"
Stim Morane: Does that make sense to you?
Auto-Teleport-Memory 3.0b (WEAR ME!) whispers: transfer'O'tronic free memory: 9701
Tarmel Udimo: oh OK
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Fefonz Quan: one last thing - getting attentin and good feedback from peole - can be also both addictive and intoxicating. i think i am done
Stim Morane: The difference is that one is liberating, and even purposeful, the other is merely heedless and obsessed with breaking things
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... please tell me the difference?
Stim Morane: Yes, good point fefonz
Stim Morane: Gaya, what was your question?
Gaya Ethaniel: Difference between warth and anger; Stim answered I think thanks :)
Gaya Ethaniel: wrath*
Stim Morane: It is possible for "wrath" to be based on seeing clearly what is amiss, and championing what is important or needs to be emphasized, sweeping away what obstructs that.
Stim Morane: I used to think some of my Tibetan masters were angry a lot ...
Stim Morane: But later I realized they were manifesting "wrath"
Stim Morane: ... at me, of course.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: And for good reasons!
Gaya Ethaniel guffaws.
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Stim Morane: ANd then they would turn to someone else, and be completely free of the apparent anger.
arabella Ella: how would they express that Stim ... as impatience ... at face value i mean?
Stim Morane: But ordinary anger isn't like that ... it persists until all the fuel is consumed
Stim Morane: arabella, they had quite a wide range ...
Stim Morane: from facial expressions to much more foceful modes
arabella Ella: oh
Stim Morane: anyway, is the point clear?
arabella Ella: yes ty
Mickorod Renard: yes ty
Gaya Ethaniel: yes :)
Stim Morane: Sorry, i interrupted you, Fefonz
arabella Ella: very interesting distinction which i had never thought of before ... wrath and anger
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fefonz Quan: no, i think i am done.
Mickorod Renard: is wrath ok then?
Tarmel Udimo: The few times I think I have experienced 'wrath', things are crystal clear
Stim Morane: anything based on awakness and a caring to champion what is true and in the best interests of others etc has to be considered somewhat OK ... :)
Fefonz Quan likes the word 'wrath'. just like the sound of an angry dog
Tarmel Udimo: the words almost speak themselves and then the moment passes and I no longer feel the emotion
Stim Morane: Yes, Tarmel
Stim Morane: but anger would just keep going
Gaya Ethaniel: I am still thinking abou t this point : [14:30] Stim Morane: ANd then they would turn to someone else, and be completely free of the apparent anger.
Gaya Ethaniel: How do they do that?
Stim Morane: Anger hates to be extinguished, ... even though the PERSON feels relief when relieved of it.
Fefonz Quan: I think it is easier withoutthe anger hidden behind it Gaya
Stim Morane: Gaya, partly the answer is that they were living from emptiness in the first place
Stim Morane: So they could do anything ... and then do anything else immediately after, with no momentum to shed
Stim Morane: we all need to find this within ourselves
Stim Morane: This is part of the point here.
Stim Morane: Yes, fefonz, good point.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok
Fefonz Quan: (btw - little children do tht too)
Stim Morane: yes, but they're cheating. :)
Fefonz Quan: ok :)
Stim Morane: they just forget
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: and they don't really recall why they were angry etc in the first place.
Stim Morane: small children are somewhat unclear about how "states" grab them.
Mickorod Renard: intoxification helps u to forget
Stim Morane: We must become aware.
Pila Mulligan: wrathful deities symbolize the tremendous effort it takes to vanquish negativity -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrathful_deities
Stim Morane: yes, mick
Stim Morane: Yes, exactly, Pila.
Tarmel Udimo: Perhaps by not being afraid and observing anger one can begin to notice the difference
Stim Morane: But that is perhaps an esoteric reference for this gathering
Stim Morane: Yes, Tarmel. Are you pretty conversant with this possibility?
Tarmel Udimo: well I don't know about conversant:)
Stim Morane: you must be, to some extent.
Tarmel Udimo: but I have noticed mainly because
Stim Morane: Or I think you wouldn't be able to say that.
Tarmel Udimo: I used to be afraid to be angry os it has been an emotion that I have had to wokr with
Tarmel Udimo: *so
Stim Morane: Yes. Many of us have this affliction ... or opportunity.
Stim Morane: It is extremely instructive, if we work with it.
Tarmel Udimo: but then I did notice that sometimes from observation that there were differant types
Stim Morane: Traditionally, it is simply discouraged. But I think that misses the opportunity.
Stim Morane: Yes, good.
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Fefonz Quan: Stim, expressing the anger is one good way to release it, from my experience, but i think you are not pointing to that direction
Stim Morane: There are indeed. ANd the same applies to so many other parts of our human range ...
Stim Morane: You're right, Fefonz.
Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes, pausese work with anger but sometimes I just have to roll with it ...
Stim Morane: Of course it might be best to do that, but we can learn other "bests"
Stim Morane: Anyway, I think I'll suggest we leave poor anger for now.
Stim Morane: The Chinese Buddhist form of the traditional precept at issue here is: "I undertake the training rule to abstain from drinks [and drugs] that cause heedlessness".
Stim Morane: And indeed, all the related precepts are defined in this straightforward way, "I agree not to do X". I mention this because it is not unusual in the traditional context for people to keep these precepts in a literal way, "not doing X or Y or Z", while possibly missing the larger implications which are so important in the contemplative sense, the "reality-oriented" sense.

Stim Morane: Say more?
Scathach Rhiadra is Offline
Eliza Madrigal: Just that I started off seeing "caffeine" and "internet" and then it went to watching the unatural pace I was setting...
Eliza Madrigal: then to seeing that I was undermining my stillness practice
Stim Morane: Good
Eliza Madrigal: So very useful as a window
Stim Morane: All this is also quite relevant to what I had in mind for this group
Stim Morane: So you think this can itself be a type of "contemplative" practice?
Eliza Madrigal: yes I can see how it could be
Stim Morane: You were another of our volunteers
Scathach Rhiadra is Online
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Stim Morane: Do you want to continue with your comments?
Eliza Madrigal: Fefonz touched on many things... the one I added is really the only thing I wanted to say :)
Stim Morane: I see. Well I don't want to prevent

Eliza Madrigal: but it is many... seemingly always a main sort of, as Wester and Fef talked about, escape
Stim Morane: Yes
Stim Morane: This comment is quite important
Stim Morane: If one watches closely, it's possible to see a host of factors as involved, dragged in.
Stim Morane: ANd this applies to all the precepts, and the things they eschew
Stim Morane: working with precepts of conduct can be a deep investigation ...
Stim Morane: Anyway, thanks for your observations, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for the excercize, saw much :)
Stim Morane: Yes, I can tell.
Stim Morane: Interesting ...
Stim Morane: Fefonz, this is probably obvious to everyone else but I didn't catch the pointer to your longer conversation about this subject. Can you clue me in?
Pila Mulligan: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/05/2009.05.13_07%3a00_-_3_People%2c_4_Selves
Stim Morane: Ah
Stim Morane: thanks
Fefonz Quan: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/05/2009.05.13_07%3a00_-_3_People%2c_4_Selves
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: I look forward to reading it
Stim Morane: So ... tell me, everyone ... what should we do with this little workshop?
Stim Morane: I was planning on shutting it down soon.
Pila Mulligan: let's continue :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah no ...
arabella Ella: may i ask a question Stim please?
Stim Morane: of course
arabella Ella: i was reflecting this week on how we as human beings are creatures of habit
arabella Ella: often resistant to change
Stim Morane: yes?
Fefonz Quan: how can you Stim, with so much raiting :)
arabella Ella: and that habit gets us stuck in a rut and can have negative effects on other aspects of our lives
Stim Morane: :)
arabella Ella: may i ask your opinion on this please ... about humans, habits and change
arabella Ella: (not habits in the addiction sense but in ways of conducting oneself)
Stim Morane: yes ... these habit chains can be quite complex.
Stim Morane: Would you like to give an example?
arabella Ella: ok
Hot Cocoa Jug: This'll warm you up!
Stim Morane: (I'm an example junkie)
arabella Ella: dealing with family in habitual ways, habitual responses, with negative responses at times
Stim Morane: yes
Stim Morane: so you say "dealing" ...
arabella Ella: due to the fact that by habit we do not take into consideration changes in peoples lives
arabella Ella: or attitudes
Stim Morane: Does that mean you have found a way to "deal"?
arabella Ella: ok ... interacting ... communicating ... maybe dealing is not right word?
Stim Morane: I wasn't complaining about the choice of word
Stim Morane: just asking
arabella Ella: (altho such communication is often not successful)
Stim Morane: it's a good example
Stim Morane: So have you found a way of dealing with such difficulties?
Gaya Ethaniel: [I can continue with practice #3 and precepts but I won't have the workshop to discuss/seek advice. I would be sad to see this shut down but I understand you are busy Stim.]
arabella Ella: if i may generalise
arabella Ella: i think most people find it different dealing with close family members as opposed to
Stim Morane: I'll reply in a minute, Gaya ...
arabella Ella: dealing with friends ... ok communicating not dealing ...
arabella Ella: colleagues or acquaintences
Stim Morane: Yes, you're probably right
arabella Ella: and with family ... we seem to fall into a rut ... with is often counterproductive
Stim Morane: Yes
arabella Ella: (my example of habitual ways of doing things)
Stim Morane: Does anyone have suggestions?
Eliza Madrigal: I've been doing a lot of re-trying with extended family I used to merely 'deal' with...
Eliza Madrigal: Just wiping the slate clean and seeing what's there
arabella Ella nods
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes finding the same things... sometimes radically different communication
Eliza Madrigal: Has been liberating :)
Eliza Madrigal: (for the most part)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: This is important. I wish we had more time. Well, perhaps we can pick this up next week.
Stim Morane: And we can then consider what should happen next with workshops too.
arabella Ella: would be great if we could Stim
aurel Miles: thank you for your time
Mickorod Renard: yes please
aurel Miles: i will be off for a bit
aurel Miles: bye
Stim Morane: Sorry to run off ... I have another SL meeting
arabella Ella: bye aurel
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you very much Stim
Mickorod Renard: bye Aurel
Pila Mulligan: thanks Stim, bye
Tarmel Udimo: yes would be great
Stim Morane: Thanks, everyone!
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
Eliza Madrigal: See you next week!
Mickorod Renard: bye Stim
arabella Ella: thanks Stim bye for now
Tarmel Udimo: bye Stim
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim
Fefonz Quan: Bye Stim
Eliza Madrigal: If we all keep showing up, suppose he will to??
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: *too
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mickorod Renard: ;)
arabella Ella smiles
Pila Mulligan: I think part of Stim's concern is that communication here is limited in depth compared with real life interaction
arabella Ella: yes and i dont think it helps to know we are on air either
Pila Mulligan: ... and he is accustomed to real life traching
arabella Ella: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: We could do 'voice' perhaps ?
arabella Ella: voice could be an idea
Mickorod Renard: yes,,but I think most of us are getting alot from this group session
Eliza Madrigal: absolutely, Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: yes very much so
Tarmel Udimo: I must apologize folks I cam in aftre the workshop had started and took things off on another tangent - espcaillay interrrupting your flow Fefonz - sorry!
arabella Ella: i think that asking for a few sessions which are not recorded could also help somehow
Eliza Madrigal: NO, Tarmel...
Eliza Madrigal: that was so interesting
Mickorod Renard: Tarmel,,its all good
arabella Ella: then i must apologise too for coming in late ...
Fefonz Quan: no problem Tarmel :)
Tarmel Udimo: ty but it was a good learning for me
Eliza Madrigal had certainly not considered 'wrath'
Pila Mulligan: there also could be a time and schedule factor for Stim, a different matter altogether
Tarmel Udimo: to see how I do just jump in
Fefonz Quan: (only that you took my favorite tactic - come late adn talk a lot then ;-0)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,guess we will have to see,,,maybe you could guide us Pila?
arabella Ella: do you mean Pila that this timing may not be right for Stim?
Pila Mulligan: just imagining his concerns ... :)
arabella Ella nods
Pila Mulligan: one would be venue, onw would be his scheudle
arabella Ella: yes
Pila Mulligan: there is not really a guiding role, Mick -- Stim's concerns are what they are, we need to see what they may be
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am going home,,bye everyone
arabella Ella: nite all must go now ... bye
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mick, Ara
Fefonz Quan: bye Mick, Ara
Pila Mulligan: bye
Gaya Ethaniel: Night :)
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I see Pila,,thankyou
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Mick, ara
Tarmel Udimo: I suspect schedule
Gaya Ethaniel: Have a good day/night all. Getting a bit too late for me. Thanks again.
Eliza Madrigal: That may be part of it.. but each week he questions whether SL is the place for these discussions/teachings?
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Gaya
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Gaya
Fefonz Quan: bye Gaya
Pila Mulligan: bye Gaya
Eliza Madrigal: I think it the place, particularly because this where we are...hehe
Tarmel Udimo: yes perhaps its about not wanting the teachings to be misinturrupted
Eliza Madrigal: Hm
Tarmel Udimo: but maybe we just ask, always best to be to the point:)
Fefonz Quan: yes, why speculate so much?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes
Eliza Madrigal: Okay
Pila Mulligan really likes this workshop
Fefonz Quan: yep
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: I feel this workshop grounds me a bit...
Fefonz Quan: Stim is also GoC at PaB on mondat afternoon, so there is another chance to enjoy his wisdom there
Fefonz Quan: monday*
Eliza Madrigal is unable to make afternoons... maybe sometimes during Summer though
Fefonz Quan: this is afternoon now
Eliza Madrigal: yes...but not an hr earlier..
Fefonz Quan: ah, see
Eliza Madrigal: this is evening for me ...once I've got the kids home and such
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namasté
Eliza Madrigal: Namaste, Scathach :)
Fefonz Quan: Bye Scath
Pila Mulligan: bye SCath