2012.01.12 - Reviewing Aph's Summary of Group Decisions Made on November 10, 2011

Version from 00:40, 13 Jan 2012

Way of Knowing - January 12, 2012

 

 

 

[13:57] Mickorod Renard: Hi Bruce

[13:57] Bruce: Hi, Mick! What a day! I just sent out a notice to the group -- and I was just able to get on-line

[13:57] Mickorod Renard: yay

[13:58] Bruce: We're having a bad storm and my internet connection dropped.

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: great

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: erk

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: Pila seems to have dropped out too

[13:58] Bruce: Yeah. I only got back online about two minutes ago!

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: I hope he comes back

[13:58] Bruce: Was he here?

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: electric storm?

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: yes, popped into pab

[13:58] Bruce: Big cold front coming through -- yes, snow, too.

[13:59] Bruce: Hi, Violet.

[13:59] Mickorod Renard: hi Atar

[13:59] Bruce: Hi, Boxy!

[13:59] Bruce: Hey Boxy -- I was just explaining to Mick that I poofed because we're having a bad storm in Ohio.

[13:59] Violet: Hi Bruce :)

[13:59] Bruce: Wow! Boxy's got all sorts of extra energy.

[13:59] boxy: ouch, a storm

[13:59] Violet: We've had lots of snow here...it doesn't stay for long though

[14:00] Mickorod Renard: yea, sometimes it comes here after you get it

[14:00] boxy: yep :) like to give this pup a run sometimes :)

[14:00] Bruce: where are you, Violet?

[14:00] Bruce: yeah. Hope I don't lose my connection again.

[14:00] boxy: are you ok being here, Bruce?

[14:00] Violet: I'm having a few connection problems myself

[14:00] Violet: Texas, Bruce

[14:00] Bruce: Well, I guess I'm OK.

[14:00] Mickorod Renard: snow in Texas?

[14:00] boxy: shouldn't you be hiding in the basement or something? :)

[14:00] Bruce: Oh! Texas!

[14:00] Bruce: Snow in Ohio.

[14:01] boxy: snowqueen of Texas

[14:01] Bruce: It's not a tornado -- Or IS IT???

[14:01] Mickorod Renard: he he

[14:01] Bruce: Maybe you know more . . .

[14:01] boxy: left paris in a cloud of smoke

[14:01] Bruce: There was a tornado in North Carolina yesterday.

[14:01] Mickorod Renard: do you have an underground shelter?

[14:01] Bruce: Nope.

[14:01] Violet: :)

[14:01] Mickorod Renard: mmm

[14:02] boxy: bruce, just images in my head :) I've seen twister too many times :)

[14:02] Mickorod Renard: I have never seen one in all my life

[14:02] Bruce is looking for a link . . .

[14:03] boxy: mick, welcome to the u.s. midlands :)

[14:03] Mickorod Renard: :))

[14:03] Bruce: I was raised in Iowa, so I've seen a few of them.

[14:03] Bruce: also here in Ohio.

[14:04] Violet: I've never seen one, either...thankfully :)

[14:04] Bruce: Here is Aph's summary. . .

[14:04] Bruce: http://hermitdog.com/Summary_of_decisions_made_regarding_WOK_November10_2011.doc

[14:04] boxy: twister is a wonderful movie. i could be chasing tornados like those guys :)

[14:04] Mickorod Renard: they say that geographically and so forth the uk is a great location for twisters but strangely we don't really get them,,of any magnitude

[14:05] Mickorod Renard: wb Pila

[14:05] Bruce: Hi, Pila!

[14:05] Pila Mulligan: greetings

[14:05] Bruce: Hi, Cal!

[14:05] boxy: bruce, on a side note, do you sense a bit of a wear from all the administrative agenda lately?

 

Bruce was busy with Aph's document and missed boxy's question, so will answer now: "Yes."

 

[14:05] boxy: cal, pila! :)

[14:05] Mickorod Renard: Hi cal

[14:05] Violet: Hi Cal, hi Pila :)

[14:06] Bruce: We were talking about storms. . . and I just gave everyone Aph's summary from last November 10th.

[14:06] Bruce: http://hermitdog.com/Summary_of_decisions_made_regarding_WOK_November10_2011.doc

[14:06] Bruce: Anyone know where Aph is, btw?

[14:06] Mickorod Renard: no, sorry

[14:07] Bruce: she's not on-line.

[14:07] Bruce: I mean, not in-world.

[14:08] Violet: Hi Pebbles

[14:09] Mickorod Renard: ok,,shall we start?

[14:09] Bruce: Does everyone have the link downloaded?

[14:09] Bruce: yes, Mick, let's do start.

[14:09] Violet: Yes

[14:10] Calvino Rabeni: It's a good summary, thanks to Aphro for the organization

[14:10] Mickorod Renard: I would like to say, I really want Wok to carry on and flourish

[14:10] Bruce: I thought it might be good to review these points, then move on to other items of business --

[14:10] Mickorod Renard: ok

[14:10] Bruce: Yes, it is an excellent summary.

[14:10] Bruce: I do too, Mick.

[14:10] Bruce: The problem for me is RL circumstances right now -- but let's don't go there...

[14:11] Bruce: Point #1:

[14:11] Bruce: Objectives of WoK.

[14:11] Bruce: any comments???

[14:11] Bruce: : To explore the many ways of knowing including contemplative, spiritual or scientific exploration, bringing traditional knowledge and learning into contemporary theory and practice.

[14:12] Bruce: Sounds good, huh?

[14:12] Pila Mulligan: :)

[14:12] Bruce: :)

[14:12] Mickorod Renard: it does

[14:12] Bruce: OK.

[14:12] Bruce: Under point #2....

[14:12] Violet: This looks good to me...the new purpose allows for natural expansion

[14:12] Bruce: I would make a "correction...."

[14:12] Bruce: thanks, Violet.

[14:13] Bruce: kk.

[14:13] Bruce: Do we want to meet every other week, as Aph says, or do we want to meet twice a month?

[14:13] Bruce listens.

[14:14] Calvino Rabeni: I have a slight preference for every other week

[14:14] Bruce: OK. Thanks, Cal.

[14:14] Bruce: Others?

[14:14] Mickorod Renard: every other week if there are 4 weeks in a month, otherwise fortnightly

[14:14] Mickorod Renard: :)

[14:14] Bruce: ok.

[14:15] Bruce: So, months with four Thursdays would have two meetings. . .

[14:15] Bruce: Maybe that's the sort of thing that can be decided meeting-by-meeting....

[14:15] Violet: I'll only be able to be here sporadically, so whatever works best for others...

[14:15] Mickorod Renard: for sure

[14:15] Bruce: (as we did around Thanksgiving and Christmas).

[14:15] Calvino Rabeni: yes... the US calendars don't have fortnights on them, but one-on-one-off does compute :)

[14:15] Bruce: ok. Violet.

[14:15] Bruce: thanks.

[14:15] Bruce: Yes, one on one off.

[14:16] Bruce: We actually agreed to plan topics one months in advance....

[14:16] Bruce: so we have some work to do...

[14:16] Mickorod Renard: I have lots of topics

[14:16] Bruce: I will take care of posting the schedules and the topics on the front page of the wiki.

[14:16] Bruce: GREAT! I am anxious to hear them all, Mick.

[14:17] Bruce: So, moving on. . .

[14:17] Bruce: a. Virtually anything could be a ground for a way of knowing, depending on the community of practice around it so selecting might be based on what people in the group have developed in their own life experience.

[14:17] Bruce: b. We can revisit some of the old themes and pick up some suggestions that have already been given

[14:17] boxy: *hopes "sexuality" is one of the Mick's topics* :)

[14:17] Bruce: ;-)

[14:17] Mickorod Renard: :)

[14:18] Mickorod Renard: wb Pila

[14:18] Bruce: Anything seems fair-game, so long as it has to do with "knowing."

[14:18] Pila Mulligan using text chat only (too many crashes recently)

[14:18] Bruce: So sorry, Pila.

[14:18] Pila Mulligan: life is tuff :)

[14:18] Bruce: I crashed right before the meeting, myself.

[14:18] boxy: ah, sorry, pila

[14:18] Bruce: Can we come back to topics in a few minutes?

[14:18] Mickorod Renard: yes pls

[14:19] Bruce: Wanted to quickly cover the other points.

[14:19] Bruce: All our discussions will be posted in the wiki under the "Discussions" section - - OK?

[14:19] Mickorod Renard: ok,,is that open to gen public?

[14:19] Bruce: And, Cal - - Did you wish to add more concerning the glossary?

[14:19] Calvino Rabeni: yes

[14:20] Mickorod Renard: ok

[14:20] Bruce: Open to public, yes.

[14:20] Calvino Rabeni: I meant about the page being open

[14:20] Bruce: yes, open to public.

[14:20] Bruce: I agree that there is probably no need for the glossary, but . .

[14:20] Calvino Rabeni: Glossary .. no, I don't think it's needed, but, might be interested in a page of short summaries about what the group is about

[14:21] Bruce: Hmmmmm. . . .

[14:21] Bruce: ok.

[14:21] Bruce: especially since the group has taken some twists and turns recently.

[14:22] Bruce: I don't want to delete anything that others have posted in the wiki, though.

[14:22] Bruce: How about we continue with our discussion of topics?

[14:22] boxy: um, question about the site: is the issue settled with the Kira board?

[14:22] Mickorod Renard: it could be archived, in a private area?

[14:22] Bruce listens carefully to all offerings!

[14:23] Bruce: As far as I know the issues are settled with the Kira Board, Boxy.

[14:23] Calvino Rabeni: What would be' private,' Mick?

[14:23] Bruce: I have not heard more from Storm.

[14:23] boxy: ok, good. thanks, bruce.

[14:23] Bruce: There might be some issues still, but I have not been informed of them.

[14:23] Mickorod Renard: nothing really, I was thinking if our new group has diferent objectives that may conflict with previous postings

[14:24] Bruce: I amended the front page -- explaining that we are NOT a continuation of the methods or content of Stim's original group.

[14:24] Mickorod Renard: ok

[14:24] Bruce: If there would be conflicts, I think that new "purpose statement" should cover it.

[14:25] Bruce: Anyone from the Board pr4esent today?

[14:25] Bruce: here, I mean?

[14:25] boxy: er

[14:25] boxy: i don't think so

[14:25] Bruce: woof woof.

[14:25] boxy: yet, i find this situation rather uncomfortable

[14:25] Mickorod Renard: do you think we may be able , from mutual consensus come to an opinion of an objective..and also perhaps a breginning point based on our rough experience

[14:26] Bruce: Please say more, Mick -- and others.\

[14:26] Calvino Rabeni: Concerns?

[14:26] Mickorod Renard: I was thinking,,for me if I could say reach a point where I was completely at home with equanamity I would have come to terms with many learnings

[14:27] Bruce: an excellent topic, Equanimity....

[14:27] Mickorod Renard: at the same time I am conversant to a point with the basics

[14:27] Bruce: but about the feeling uncomfortable with our present objective (stated in Aph's document)?

[14:28] Bruce: b. Our newly-worded purpose and subject of study could be: To explore the many ways of knowing including contemplative, spiritual or scientific exploration, bringing traditional knowledge and learning into contemporary theory and practice.

[14:28] Mickorod Renard: those objectives are great, but do not offer a path

[14:28] boxy: i think aph did an awesome job simplifying it. yet i would go even farther.

[14:28] Bruce: Please do say more, boxy.

[14:29] boxy: until it's clearly understood by all members of the group, it's not an objective, but a vague statement

[14:29] Calvino Rabeni: One mountain, many paths, Mick?

[14:29] Bruce (bruce.mowbray) listens.

[14:29] Mickorod Renard: I agree with Alf, yet also with Cal

[14:29] Mickorod Renard: maybe a pointer to a path

[14:30] Mickorod Renard: and thus i THOUGHT THE PLACE i THINK WOULD BENEFIT ALL WOULD BE EQUANAMITY

[14:30] Mickorod Renard: OOPS

[14:30] Bruce: If anyone wishes to develop the statement further . . . especially regarding "paths . . . "

[14:30] Bruce: ;-)

[14:30] Mickorod Renard: especially as it is not just a buddhist thing

[14:30] Bruce: I do that a lot, Mick!

[14:31] boxy: this last bit: "bringing traditional knowledge and learning into contemporary theory and practice" - does it mean an application of, say, Zen to a modern way of life and thinking?

[14:31] Bruce: I interpret that to mean ANY tradition . . . and lineage. . . and body of knowledge.

[14:31] Bruce: Did you wish it to be specific to Buddhism or Zen?

[14:31] boxy: yes, Zen as an example

[14:32] boxy: yet, some may say it's Pali canon that is truly traditional

[14:32] boxy: no, not at all

[14:32] boxy: just clarifying the statement

[14:32] Bruce: kk.

[14:33] Mickorod Renard: it was interesting that Jung identified that traditional practices are very relevant to the modern man

[14:33] Bruce: Perhaps examples of different "paths" and/or methods could be inserted there...?

[14:33] Mickorod Renard: and woman

[14:33] Bruce: (You know, this is a whole topic in itself!)

[14:33] Calvino Rabeni: It is a basic question about ways of knowing, .. how much agreement and coherence is needed among the members of a group? Given the nature of our world now this will be something unreachable in a "pure" way, but it seems possible to continually balance around a middle ground

[14:33] boxy: mick, yes, we still celebrate Christmas :) yet, the meaning is lost for many.

[14:34] Bruce: Thanks, Cal.

[14:34] boxy: Bruce, i would work towards reduction of the objective, not adding new things

[14:34] Bruce: I'd really like to devote the rest of this session to topics, leaders, homework, etc.

[14:34] Bruce: Is that all right?

[14:34] Mickorod Renard: I think we trust each other enough to take any path knowing it will lead to knowing a little more

[14:34] Violet: Sure

[14:34] Calvino Rabeni: Sure

[14:34] Mickorod Renard: sure

[14:35] Bruce: Cal has provided an excellent beginning to a list of topics. . .

[14:35] Calvino Rabeni: Homework, pro or con? :)

[14:35] Bruce: right here in Aph's summary.

[14:35] Bruce: o Personal learning styles

o What makes a "Sangha“? How does a Sangha come into being? Does "knowing" happen for a Sangha that does not happen for an individual apart from the Sangha?

o What is contemplation?

o Revisiting the Lojong series.

o What is "personality"? (How do I account for it in my daily life; mine; others)

o Transpersonal themes

o Collective intelligence

o Neuroscience - implications for theories of mind

o Ways of learning

o In addition, there are lots of ideas in the following areas

o http://waysofknowing.kira.org/ Homework_Ideas

o http://waysofknowing.kira.org/ Homework_Ideas/Calvino

[14:35] Mickorod Renard: I am terrible at homework,,yet after wok sessions my mind is constantly thinking the topics over

[14:36] Bruce: It seems to me that homework would depend on what the leaders of a discussion wished to assign.

[14:36] Calvino Rabeni: So Mick, you're doing homework :)

[14:36] Bruce: ;-)

[14:36] Mickorod Renard: in a way yes Cal

[14:36] Bruce: and staying after class until it is finished, too, Mick.

[14:36] Bruce: :((((

[14:36] boxy: a good list

[14:37] Bruce: an excellent list.

[14:37] Bruce: Mick, you also suggested the topic of "Equanimity."

[14:37] Pila Mulligan: as I recall Stim's sessions, his homework was not studying something so much as it was practicing something

[14:37] Bruce: yes, the practice.

[14:37] Violet: It's always a work in progress...there's my excuse :)

[14:37] Mickorod Renard: it is a good list,,I am a bit in awe of the academic appearance of it

[14:37] Bruce: excellent point, Pila.

[14:37] boxy: Aph did a wonderful job

[14:38] Calvino Rabeni: I had another idea today while I was sleeping ... which was for group members to review the early "Stim" sessions and make a list of what in them pointed them in the direction of some kind of opening or insight

[14:38] Calvino Rabeni: then share that on the wiki as homework

[14:38] Mickorod Renard: maybe we should lay foundations too,,like what is practice, discipline etc

[14:38] Bruce: Just as Cal and I were leaders of the topic "Sangha" in December, we would need volunteers to be leaders of a topic for February (or the next meeting in January, if we decide to have one).

[14:38] boxy: *nods to mick*

[14:39] boxy: cal, i'd rather explore new topics

[14:39] Mickorod Renard: I would be happy to be a catalyst /medium to further topics etc

[14:39] Calvino Rabeni: I believe it's most workable to have two leaders to collaborate on each month

[14:39] Violet: I'd like to explore neuroscience and theories of mind, and theories/styles of learning...but I'm certainly not in a hurry to get there

[14:39] Bruce wonders if Boxy and Mick are volunteering to lead a topic....

[14:40] boxy: violet, good choice :)

[14:40] boxy: bruce, only after i'm clear about the wok's goal

[14:40] Violet: :)

[14:40] Bruce: We can go for several weeks on one topic - if there is sufficient interest.

[14:40] Mickorod Renard: I am reading so much stuff at the moment that one subjects crosses into another,,but they are all subjects we list

[14:40] Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, Mick, Stim wasn't about topics, but about openings... in a way since we're limited creatures, we tend to be able to focus on either topics OR openings.

[14:41] Violet: I like the slower pace, too

[14:41] boxy: mick, i think intermingling is great! :)

[14:41] Mickorod Renard: just thinking about that Cal

[14:41] boxy: cal, can you explain topics vs openings please?

[14:42] Mickorod Renard: I often choose the wrong word,,but am happy to use which works best

[14:42] Calvino Rabeni: Old conversations with new openings, or new topics where we bring the same old "selves"

[14:42] Bruce: topics, openings, methods, disciplines . . .

[14:42] Violet: Yes, I'm curious too

[14:42] Bruce: Wonderful, Cal. So revisiting "new openings" with some of the "old" themes of WoK sessions three years ago.

[14:42] boxy: cal?

[14:42] Calvino Rabeni: It's a thing that happens ... to focus too much on a topic, externalizes it from the "self" doing the knowing and distracts from the opening

[14:43] Bruce: We'll need leadership with this, Cal.

[14:43] boxy: is "opening" a Stim's term?

[14:43] Calvino Rabeni: It's called reification ... makes a "thing" out of a way of knowing and then hides the "knower"

[14:43] Calvino Rabeni: It's my term

[14:43] boxy: um, complicated :)

[14:43] Mickorod Renard: I think I know what you mean Cal, but we need the fuel to learn

[14:44] Calvino Rabeni: but if you read Stim's transcripts, you can find the reaching for openings in knowing .. and also the reluctance to over-define things

[14:44] Calvino Rabeni: What makes good fuel, Mick?

[14:44] Calvino Rabeni: It probably varies for different people

[14:45] boxy: topic - a subject of discussion. opening - reification ... makes a "thing" out of a way of knowing and then hides the "knower" :)

[14:45] Mickorod Renard: I was thinking today,,that we are the jigsaw puzzle players,,not the jigsaw

[14:45] Calvino Rabeni: Sorry Bruce, if this is off track from our decisions

[14:45] Bruce: ;-)

[14:45] Bruce: You're right on target, Cal.

[14:45] Bruce: thanks!

[14:45] Violet: I think I understand...starting points over destinations?

[14:45] Gilles KuhnGilles Kuhnhello all

[14:45] Calvino Rabeni: I think perhaps it's good to entrust the process to whatever abilities the current leaders can support

[14:45] Mickorod Renard: Hi Gilles

[14:45] Calvino Rabeni: Long time no see, Gilles

[14:45] Violet: Hi Gilles

[14:45] Bruce: Hi, Gilles.

[14:46] boxy: oh! maybe gilles can explain this :)

[14:46] Bruce: Yes, I trust that the leaders will consider all of the points made here today.

[14:46] Gilles Kuhn: huh what alfred?

[14:46] Bruce: Only 15 minutes more...

[14:46] Bruce: Shall we choose a topic? Are there volunteers to lead?

[14:47] Bruce sure wishes Aph were here.

[14:47] Calvino Rabeni: Starting points over destinations, yes Atara, I'd go along with that

[14:47] Mickorod Renard: I seem to learn best from experience, but sometimes the obvious is not obvious until we either open our eyes or its pointed out,,thats the sort of fuel I was thinking about

[14:47] Violet: :)

[14:47] Calvino Rabeni: nods

[14:48] Mickorod Renard: but where to start,,mmmm

[14:48] boxy: sexuality, please :)

[14:48] Mickorod Renard: also one hour passes quickly

[14:49] Bruce wonders about "practice" and sexuality. . .

[14:49] boxy: we can do that

[14:49] Pila Mulligan: boxy, are you suggesting sexuality as a topic?

[14:49] boxy: yes

[14:49] Mickorod Renard: perhaps we could play it like going for a picnic,,and we all bring things relative to the whatever we are choosing to do

[14:49] Pila Mulligan: :)

[14:49] Bruce: Will you be a leader for that topic, Boxy?

[14:50] boxy: i need to know the goal first, Bruce

[14:50] boxy: what do i present and what's the purpose

[14:50] Bruce: Perhaps the journey BECOMES the goal . . . (or IS the goal). . . That is my concept of "practice," actually.

[14:50] Calvino Rabeni: Yes

[14:51] Pila Mulligan: do you have anything in particular in mind in suggesting the topic, boxy?

[14:51] Mickorod Renard: unless we choose we will repeat this each week

[14:51] boxy: yes, the path is always a journey, but paths do lead to places

[14:51] Mickorod Renard: samsara?

[14:51] Calvino Rabeni: Without prep, homework and a big context of understanding, an hour goes by like a flash

[14:51] Calvino Rabeni: :) Hi .. ummm, let's start ... what are we about .. oh maybe this . ok .. yes here's a half idea .. umm , hey times about up .. ok see you next time .. Byee ...

[14:52] Bruce: Perhaps you could define a "goal" for us as you develop the topic, Boxy.

[14:52] Mickorod Renard: he he

[14:52] Calvino Rabeni: Yes that makes sense Bruce

[14:52] Mickorod Renard: ok, if no one decides in the next 3 mins I will

[14:52] Calvino Rabeni zips lips

[14:52] Mickorod Renard: :))

[14:52] Bruce: Yes, we need a leader to give homework, context, goals for that topic, etc.

[14:52] boxy: go, Mick. I've no idea what is this about :)

[14:52] Violet: Maybe we can try and see where the wider topic of "Sexuality & Practice" leads...and if something more specific comes up, follow that; or follow a different structure, if that's too chaotic...

[14:53] Mickorod Renard: maybe there is substance in that

[14:53] Calvino Rabeni: Sexuality is a topic fraught with a lot of hidden boundaries and taboos ..

[14:53] Bruce: There is MUCH substance there. . .

[14:53] Calvino Rabeni: A light touch is recommended :)

[14:53] Mickorod Renard: Bruce and I are doing archetypes,,there is a link here

[14:54] Mickorod Renard: I am unsure where the sexuality bit is coming from

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: we could ,,i know

[14:55] Bruce: Boxy suggested it.

[14:55] Calvino Rabeni: When you proposed it Alfred, where's that coming from?

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: in dhama

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: one cannot have a sexual relationship

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: on the go

[14:55] Violet: I'd prefer delicacy, too :)

[14:55] Calvino Rabeni: yes

[14:55] Bruce: ;-)

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: and neither Catholic priests

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: so we could look into why this is so

[14:56] Mickorod Renard: the distraction of sex

[14:56] Mickorod Renard: and so forth

[14:56] Gilles Kuhn: neither any priest mickorod ;-)

[14:56] boxy: cal, indeed, which makes it an exciting journey :) how do we perceive sexuality? what is sexuality for us? where does it come from? how we deal with it? how is love related to sexuality? etc

[14:56] Calvino Rabeni: yes Alfred

[14:56] Bruce: Fascinating topic, Boxy.

[14:56] Mickorod Renard: and sex is also necessary for life

[14:56] Mickorod Renard: yet taboo in religion

[14:56] Bruce waits for leaders to volunteer . . . (four minutes).

[14:57] Gilles Kuhn: is there a biologist or an endocrinologist that could enlighten us?

[14:57] Calvino Rabeni: making friends with the topic would be a great result from a session or two

[14:57] Mickorod Renard: ok,,Alf and I will do it

[14:57] boxy: cause religion wants to own life itself

[14:57] Mickorod Renard: is that ok Alf?

[14:57] Bruce: (Yes, to Boxy and Mick leading it....)

[14:57] boxy: um, you do the sexuality?

[14:57] Bruce: ?

[14:57] Mickorod Renard: he he

[14:58] boxy: yes, Mick. i'm all for it :)

[14:58] Mickorod Renard: ok,,what bit are you doing?

[14:58] Violet: Hmm...well, I'm losing my connection...take care, everyone. Let's just see how things develop :)

[14:58] Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure I'd like to take my sexual cues from expert opinion .. whether priests, monks, or scientists ONLY

[14:58] Mickorod Renard: bye Atar

[14:58] Pila Mulligan: bye Atari

[14:58] Calvino Rabeni: Bye

[14:58] boxy: we can invite Morgano too :)

[14:58] Mickorod Renard: grin

[14:58] Calvino Rabeni: Who's that ?

[14:58] Mickorod Renard: don't ask

[14:58] boxy: don't tell

[14:59] boxy: :)

[14:59] Bruce: Next meeting in two weeks: Jan 26?

[14:59] Pila Mulligan: don't tell

[14:59] Pila Mulligan: :)

[14:59] Mickorod Renard: ok,,just a quickie..what do we do?

[14:59] boxy: gilles, i think you could say a thing or two on sexuality? :)

[14:59] Bruce: Boxy and Mick -- feed me information and I will send out emails (or you could also send out emails...)

[14:59] Mickorod Renard: can we volunteer info to be posted?

[14:59] Bruce: regarding homework,

[14:59] Mickorod Renard: ok great Bruce

[15:00] Mickorod Renard: homework,,look up what u can that may have some knowing

[15:00] Calvino Rabeni: The current month's leaders update the wiki page?

[15:00] Bruce: Sure! You can do anything you like... so long as it is within the WoK purpose statement.

[15:00] Mickorod Renard: to bring to the picnic

[15:00] Bruce: I usually update the wiki page..

[15:00] Mickorod Renard: picnic,,in two weeks

[15:00] Bruce: but others could also.

[15:00] Calvino Rabeni: okay

[15:00] Bruce: Just feed me whatever information you want there.

[15:00] Calvino Rabeni: thanks Bruce

[15:00] Bruce: Two weeks, then?

[15:00] Mickorod Renard: ok Great,,we need to get moving

[15:01] Mickorod Renard: and must then use these weeks to agree on next issue

[15:01] Mickorod Renard: darnt use topic

[15:01] Mickorod Renard: :)

[15:01] Mickorod Renard: thingy

[15:01] Bruce: "darnt"?

[15:01] Pila Mulligan: = dast not

[15:02] Mickorod Renard: he he

[15:02] Bruce: I don't understand.

[15:02] Pila Mulligan: Brti speak

[15:02] Pila Mulligan: Brit*

[15:02] boxy: sussing brits :)

[15:02] Mickorod Renard: one topic must be ' why do I volunteer'

[15:02] Mickorod Renard: he he

[15:03] boxy: um

[15:03] Bruce: Anyone else wish to offer anything for the good of the order?

[15:03] Calvino Rabeni: non-current-leaders remember .. please support your current leader in any way you can ... your turn will come

[15:03] Mickorod Renard: well, I feel quite happy that we have the wheels in motion

[15:03] Bruce: ok.

[15:03] Pila Mulligan: a benediction Bruce?

[15:04] Bruce: I shall post this log on the wiki.

[15:04] Bruce: and wait for Boxy and Mick to feed me more information, if they wish to.

[15:04] Bruce: May all be happy and well.

[15:04] Calvino Rabeni smiles at Bruce as the reigning benedictorian

[15:04] Mickorod Renard: just a point of interest,,does anyone know of the secret of the golden flower?

[15:04] Gilles Kuhn: to the word leader i prefer gentle organiser but well ;-)

[15:04] Calvino Rabeni: yes it's written in code

[15:04] Bruce: Not I, Mick.

[15:04] Calvino Rabeni: Pila might have more to say

[15:05] boxy: someone's gotta be, gilles :)

[15:05] Pila Mulligan: :)

[15:05] boxy: even if gentle

[15:05] Pila Mulligan: nice book

[15:05] Calvino Rabeni: I believe it's not written with the idea of being immediately comprehensible

[15:05] Mickorod Renard: thanks

[15:05] Mickorod Renard: maybe a topic?

[15:05] Pila Mulligan: the book as a topic?

[15:05] Mickorod Renard: is it big?

[15:06] Pila Mulligan: Cal's admonition applies

[15:06] Calvino Rabeni: no, it is deep

[15:06] Mickorod Renard: ahh

[15:06] Calvino Rabeni: sort of the quantum physics of Taoism

[15:06] Mickorod Renard: that's what we need then

[15:06] Calvino Rabeni: one paragraph per month would be about right

[15:06] Mickorod Renard: that should last us a few years

Current version

Way of Knowing - January 12, 2012

 

[13:57] Mickorod Renard: Hi Bruce

[13:57] Bruce: Hi, Mick! What a day! I just sent out a notice to the group -- and I was just able to get on-line

[13:57] Mickorod Renard: yay

[13:58] Bruce: We're having a bad storm and my internet connection dropped.

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: great

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: erk

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: Pila seems to have dropped out too

[13:58] Bruce: Yeah. I only got back online about two minutes ago!

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: I hope he comes back

[13:58] Bruce: Was he here?

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: electric storm?

[13:58] Mickorod Renard: yes, popped into pab

[13:58] Bruce: Big cold front coming through -- yes, snow, too.

[13:59] Bruce: Hi, Violet.

[13:59] Mickorod Renard: hi Atar

[13:59] Bruce: Hi, Boxy!

[13:59] Bruce: Hey Boxy -- I was just explaining to Mick that I poofed because we're having a bad storm in Ohio.

[13:59] Violet: Hi Bruce :)

[13:59] Bruce: Wow! Boxy's got all sorts of extra energy.

[13:59] boxy: ouch, a storm

[13:59] Violet: We've had lots of snow here...it doesn't stay for long though

[14:00] Mickorod Renard: yea, sometimes it comes here after you get it

[14:00] boxy: yep :) like to give this pup a run sometimes :)

[14:00] Bruce: where are you, Violet?

[14:00] Bruce: yeah. Hope I don't lose my connection again.

[14:00] boxy: are you ok being here, Bruce?

[14:00] Violet: I'm having a few connection problems myself

[14:00] Violet: Texas, Bruce

[14:00] Bruce: Well, I guess I'm OK.

[14:00] Mickorod Renard: snow in Texas?

[14:00] boxy: shouldn't you be hiding in the basement or something? :)

[14:00] Bruce: Oh! Texas!

[14:00] Bruce: Snow in Ohio.

[14:01] boxy: snowqueen of Texas

[14:01] Bruce: It's not a tornado -- Or IS IT???

[14:01] Mickorod Renard: he he

[14:01] Bruce: Maybe you know more . . .

[14:01] boxy: left paris in a cloud of smoke

[14:01] Bruce: There was a tornado in North Carolina yesterday.

[14:01] Mickorod Renard: do you have an underground shelter?

[14:01] Bruce: Nope.

[14:01] Violet: :)

[14:01] Mickorod Renard: mmm

[14:02] boxy: bruce, just images in my head :) I've seen twister too many times :)

[14:02] Mickorod Renard: I have never seen one in all my life

[14:02] Bruce is looking for a link . . .

[14:03] boxy: mick, welcome to the u.s. midlands :)

[14:03] Mickorod Renard: :))

[14:03] Bruce: I was raised in Iowa, so I've seen a few of them.

[14:03] Bruce: also here in Ohio.

[14:04] Violet: I've never seen one, either...thankfully :)

[14:04] Bruce: Here is Aph's summary. . .

[14:04] Bruce: http://hermitdog.com/Summary_of_decisions_made_regarding_WOK_November10_2011.doc

[14:04] boxy: twister is a wonderful movie. i could be chasing tornados like those guys :)

[14:04] Mickorod Renard: they say that geographically and so forth the uk is a great location for twisters but strangely we don't really get them,,of any magnitude

[14:05] Mickorod Renard: wb Pila

[14:05] Bruce: Hi, Pila!

[14:05] Pila Mulligan: greetings

[14:05] Bruce: Hi, Cal!

[14:05] boxy: bruce, on a side note, do you sense a bit of a wear from all the administrative agenda lately?

 

Bruce was busy with Aph's document and missed boxy's question, so will answer now: "Yes."

 

[14:05] boxy: cal, pila! :)

[14:05] Mickorod Renard: Hi cal

[14:05] Violet: Hi Cal, hi Pila :)

[14:06] Bruce: We were talking about storms. . . and I just gave everyone Aph's summary from last November 10th.

[14:06] Bruce: http://hermitdog.com/Summary_of_decisions_made_regarding_WOK_November10_2011.doc

[14:06] Bruce: Anyone know where Aph is, btw?

[14:06] Mickorod Renard: no, sorry

[14:07] Bruce: she's not on-line.

[14:07] Bruce: I mean, not in-world.

[14:08] Violet: Hi Pebbles

[14:09] Mickorod Renard: ok,,shall we start?

[14:09] Bruce: Does everyone have the link downloaded?

[14:09] Bruce: yes, Mick, let's do start.

[14:09] Violet: Yes

[14:10] Calvino Rabeni: It's a good summary, thanks to Aphro for the organization

[14:10] Mickorod Renard: I would like to say, I really want Wok to carry on and flourish

[14:10] Bruce: I thought it might be good to review these points, then move on to other items of business --

[14:10] Mickorod Renard: ok

[14:10] Bruce: Yes, it is an excellent summary.

[14:10] Bruce: I do too, Mick.

[14:10] Bruce: The problem for me is RL circumstances right now -- but let's don't go there...

[14:11] Bruce: Point #1:

[14:11] Bruce: Objectives of WoK.

[14:11] Bruce: any comments???

[14:11] Bruce: : To explore the many ways of knowing including contemplative, spiritual or scientific exploration, bringing traditional knowledge and learning into contemporary theory and practice.

[14:12] Bruce: Sounds good, huh?

[14:12] Pila Mulligan: :)

[14:12] Bruce: :)

[14:12] Mickorod Renard: it does

[14:12] Bruce: OK.

[14:12] Bruce: Under point #2....

[14:12] Violet: This looks good to me...the new purpose allows for natural expansion

[14:12] Bruce: I would make a "correction...."

[14:12] Bruce: thanks, Violet.

[14:13] Bruce: kk.

[14:13] Bruce: Do we want to meet every other week, as Aph says, or do we want to meet twice a month?

[14:13] Bruce listens.

[14:14] Calvino Rabeni: I have a slight preference for every other week

[14:14] Bruce: OK. Thanks, Cal.

[14:14] Bruce: Others?

[14:14] Mickorod Renard: every other week if there are 4 weeks in a month, otherwise fortnightly

[14:14] Mickorod Renard: :)

[14:14] Bruce: ok.

[14:15] Bruce: So, months with four Thursdays would have two meetings. . .

[14:15] Bruce: Maybe that's the sort of thing that can be decided meeting-by-meeting....

[14:15] Violet: I'll only be able to be here sporadically, so whatever works best for others...

[14:15] Mickorod Renard: for sure

[14:15] Bruce: (as we did around Thanksgiving and Christmas).

[14:15] Calvino Rabeni: yes... the US calendars don't have fortnights on them, but one-on-one-off does compute :)

[14:15] Bruce: ok. Violet.

[14:15] Bruce: thanks.

[14:15] Bruce: Yes, one on one off.

[14:16] Bruce: We actually agreed to plan topics one months in advance....

[14:16] Bruce: so we have some work to do...

[14:16] Mickorod Renard: I have lots of topics

[14:16] Bruce: I will take care of posting the schedules and the topics on the front page of the wiki.

[14:16] Bruce: GREAT! I am anxious to hear them all, Mick.

[14:17] Bruce: So, moving on. . .

[14:17] Bruce: a. Virtually anything could be a ground for a way of knowing, depending on the community of practice around it so selecting might be based on what people in the group have developed in their own life experience.

[14:17] Bruce: b. We can revisit some of the old themes and pick up some suggestions that have already been given

[14:17] boxy: *hopes "sexuality" is one of the Mick's topics* :)

[14:17] Bruce: ;-)

[14:17] Mickorod Renard: :)

[14:18] Mickorod Renard: wb Pila

[14:18] Bruce: Anything seems fair-game, so long as it has to do with "knowing."

[14:18] Pila Mulligan using text chat only (too many crashes recently)

[14:18] Bruce: So sorry, Pila.

[14:18] Pila Mulligan: life is tuff :)

[14:18] Bruce: I crashed right before the meeting, myself.

[14:18] boxy: ah, sorry, pila

[14:18] Bruce: Can we come back to topics in a few minutes?

[14:18] Mickorod Renard: yes pls

[14:19] Bruce: Wanted to quickly cover the other points.

[14:19] Bruce: All our discussions will be posted in the wiki under the "Discussions" section - - OK?

[14:19] Mickorod Renard: ok,,is that open to gen public?

[14:19] Bruce: And, Cal - - Did you wish to add more concerning the glossary?

[14:19] Calvino Rabeni: yes

[14:20] Mickorod Renard: ok

[14:20] Bruce: Open to public, yes.

[14:20] Calvino Rabeni: I meant about the page being open

[14:20] Bruce: yes, open to public.

[14:20] Bruce: I agree that there is probably no need for the glossary, but . .

[14:20] Calvino Rabeni: Glossary .. no, I don't think it's needed, but, might be interested in a page of short summaries about what the group is about

[14:21] Bruce: Hmmmmm. . . .

[14:21] Bruce: ok.

[14:21] Bruce: especially since the group has taken some twists and turns recently.

[14:22] Bruce: I don't want to delete anything that others have posted in the wiki, though.

[14:22] Bruce: How about we continue with our discussion of topics?

[14:22] boxy: um, question about the site: is the issue settled with the Kira board?

[14:22] Mickorod Renard: it could be archived, in a private area?

[14:22] Bruce listens carefully to all offerings!

[14:23] Bruce: As far as I know the issues are settled with the Kira Board, Boxy.

[14:23] Calvino Rabeni: What would be' private,' Mick?

[14:23] Bruce: I have not heard more from Storm.

[14:23] boxy: ok, good. thanks, bruce.

[14:23] Bruce: There might be some issues still, but I have not been informed of them.

[14:23] Mickorod Renard: nothing really, I was thinking if our new group has diferent objectives that may conflict with previous postings

[14:24] Bruce: I amended the front page -- explaining that we are NOT a continuation of the methods or content of Stim's original group.

[14:24] Mickorod Renard: ok

[14:24] Bruce: If there would be conflicts, I think that new "purpose statement" should cover it.

[14:25] Bruce: Anyone from the Board pr4esent today?

[14:25] Bruce: here, I mean?

[14:25] boxy: er

[14:25] boxy: i don't think so

[14:25] Bruce: woof woof.

[14:25] boxy: yet, i find this situation rather uncomfortable

[14:25] Mickorod Renard: do you think we may be able , from mutual consensus come to an opinion of an objective..and also perhaps a breginning point based on our rough experience

[14:26] Bruce: Please say more, Mick -- and others.\

[14:26] Calvino Rabeni: Concerns?

[14:26] Mickorod Renard: I was thinking,,for me if I could say reach a point where I was completely at home with equanamity I would have come to terms with many learnings

[14:27] Bruce: an excellent topic, Equanimity....

[14:27] Mickorod Renard: at the same time I am conversant to a point with the basics

[14:27] Bruce: but about the feeling uncomfortable with our present objective (stated in Aph's document)?

[14:28] Bruce: b. Our newly-worded purpose and subject of study could be: To explore the many ways of knowing including contemplative, spiritual or scientific exploration, bringing traditional knowledge and learning into contemporary theory and practice.

[14:28] Mickorod Renard: those objectives are great, but do not offer a path

[14:28] boxy: i think aph did an awesome job simplifying it. yet i would go even farther.

[14:28] Bruce: Please do say more, boxy.

[14:29] boxy: until it's clearly understood by all members of the group, it's not an objective, but a vague statement

[14:29] Calvino Rabeni: One mountain, many paths, Mick?

[14:29] Bruce (bruce.mowbray) listens.

[14:29] Mickorod Renard: I agree with Alf, yet also with Cal

[14:29] Mickorod Renard: maybe a pointer to a path

[14:30] Mickorod Renard: and thus i THOUGHT THE PLACE i THINK WOULD BENEFIT ALL WOULD BE EQUANAMITY

[14:30] Mickorod Renard: OOPS

[14:30] Bruce: If anyone wishes to develop the statement further . . . especially regarding "paths . . . "

[14:30] Bruce: ;-)

[14:30] Mickorod Renard: especially as it is not just a buddhist thing

[14:30] Bruce: I do that a lot, Mick!

[14:31] boxy: this last bit: "bringing traditional knowledge and learning into contemporary theory and practice" - does it mean an application of, say, Zen to a modern way of life and thinking?

[14:31] Bruce: I interpret that to mean ANY tradition . . . and lineage. . . and body of knowledge.

[14:31] Bruce: Did you wish it to be specific to Buddhism or Zen?

[14:31] boxy: yes, Zen as an example

[14:32] boxy: yet, some may say it's Pali canon that is truly traditional

[14:32] boxy: no, not at all

[14:32] boxy: just clarifying the statement

[14:32] Bruce: kk.

[14:33] Mickorod Renard: it was interesting that Jung identified that traditional practices are very relevant to the modern man

[14:33] Bruce: Perhaps examples of different "paths" and/or methods could be inserted there...?

[14:33] Mickorod Renard: and woman

[14:33] Bruce: (You know, this is a whole topic in itself!)

[14:33] Calvino Rabeni: It is a basic question about ways of knowing, .. how much agreement and coherence is needed among the members of a group? Given the nature of our world now this will be something unreachable in a "pure" way, but it seems possible to continually balance around a middle ground

[14:33] boxy: mick, yes, we still celebrate Christmas :) yet, the meaning is lost for many.

[14:34] Bruce: Thanks, Cal.

[14:34] boxy: Bruce, i would work towards reduction of the objective, not adding new things

[14:34] Bruce: I'd really like to devote the rest of this session to topics, leaders, homework, etc.

[14:34] Bruce: Is that all right?

[14:34] Mickorod Renard: I think we trust each other enough to take any path knowing it will lead to knowing a little more

[14:34] Violet: Sure

[14:34] Calvino Rabeni: Sure

[14:34] Mickorod Renard: sure

[14:35] Bruce: Cal has provided an excellent beginning to a list of topics. . .

[14:35] Calvino Rabeni: Homework, pro or con? :)

[14:35] Bruce: right here in Aph's summary.

[14:35] Bruce: o Personal learning styles

o What makes a "Sangha“? How does a Sangha come into being? Does "knowing" happen for a Sangha that does not happen for an individual apart from the Sangha?

o What is contemplation?

o Revisiting the Lojong series.

o What is "personality"? (How do I account for it in my daily life; mine; others)

o Transpersonal themes

o Collective intelligence

o Neuroscience - implications for theories of mind

o Ways of learning

o In addition, there are lots of ideas in the following areas

o http://waysofknowing.kira.org/ Homework_Ideas

o http://waysofknowing.kira.org/ Homework_Ideas/Calvino

[14:35] Mickorod Renard: I am terrible at homework,,yet after wok sessions my mind is constantly thinking the topics over

[14:36] Bruce: It seems to me that homework would depend on what the leaders of a discussion wished to assign.

[14:36] Calvino Rabeni: So Mick, you're doing homework :)

[14:36] Bruce: ;-)

[14:36] Mickorod Renard: in a way yes Cal

[14:36] Bruce: and staying after class until it is finished, too, Mick.

[14:36] Bruce: :((((

[14:36] boxy: a good list

[14:37] Bruce: an excellent list.

[14:37] Bruce: Mick, you also suggested the topic of "Equanimity."

[14:37] Pila Mulligan: as I recall Stim's sessions, his homework was not studying something so much as it was practicing something

[14:37] Bruce: yes, the practice.

[14:37] Violet: It's always a work in progress...there's my excuse :)

[14:37] Mickorod Renard: it is a good list,,I am a bit in awe of the academic appearance of it

[14:37] Bruce: excellent point, Pila.

[14:37] boxy: Aph did a wonderful job

[14:38] Calvino Rabeni: I had another idea today while I was sleeping ... which was for group members to review the early "Stim" sessions and make a list of what in them pointed them in the direction of some kind of opening or insight

[14:38] Calvino Rabeni: then share that on the wiki as homework

[14:38] Mickorod Renard: maybe we should lay foundations too,,like what is practice, discipline etc

[14:38] Bruce: Just as Cal and I were leaders of the topic "Sangha" in December, we would need volunteers to be leaders of a topic for February (or the next meeting in January, if we decide to have one).

[14:38] boxy: *nods to mick*

[14:39] boxy: cal, i'd rather explore new topics

[14:39] Mickorod Renard: I would be happy to be a catalyst /medium to further topics etc

[14:39] Calvino Rabeni: I believe it's most workable to have two leaders to collaborate on each month

[14:39] Violet: I'd like to explore neuroscience and theories of mind, and theories/styles of learning...but I'm certainly not in a hurry to get there

[14:39] Bruce wonders if Boxy and Mick are volunteering to lead a topic....

[14:40] boxy: violet, good choice :)

[14:40] boxy: bruce, only after i'm clear about the wok's goal

[14:40] Violet: :)

[14:40] Bruce: We can go for several weeks on one topic - if there is sufficient interest.

[14:40] Mickorod Renard: I am reading so much stuff at the moment that one subjects crosses into another,,but they are all subjects we list

[14:40] Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, Mick, Stim wasn't about topics, but about openings... in a way since we're limited creatures, we tend to be able to focus on either topics OR openings.

[14:41] Violet: I like the slower pace, too

[14:41] boxy: mick, i think intermingling is great! :)

[14:41] Mickorod Renard: just thinking about that Cal

[14:41] boxy: cal, can you explain topics vs openings please?

[14:42] Mickorod Renard: I often choose the wrong word,,but am happy to use which works best

[14:42] Calvino Rabeni: Old conversations with new openings, or new topics where we bring the same old "selves"

[14:42] Bruce: topics, openings, methods, disciplines . . .

[14:42] Violet: Yes, I'm curious too

[14:42] Bruce: Wonderful, Cal. So revisiting "new openings" with some of the "old" themes of WoK sessions three years ago.

[14:42] boxy: cal?

[14:42] Calvino Rabeni: It's a thing that happens ... to focus too much on a topic, externalizes it from the "self" doing the knowing and distracts from the opening

[14:43] Bruce: We'll need leadership with this, Cal.

[14:43] boxy: is "opening" a Stim's term?

[14:43] Calvino Rabeni: It's called reification ... makes a "thing" out of a way of knowing and then hides the "knower"

[14:43] Calvino Rabeni: It's my term

[14:43] boxy: um, complicated :)

[14:43] Mickorod Renard: I think I know what you mean Cal, but we need the fuel to learn

[14:44] Calvino Rabeni: but if you read Stim's transcripts, you can find the reaching for openings in knowing .. and also the reluctance to over-define things

[14:44] Calvino Rabeni: What makes good fuel, Mick?

[14:44] Calvino Rabeni: It probably varies for different people

[14:45] boxy: topic - a subject of discussion. opening - reification ... makes a "thing" out of a way of knowing and then hides the "knower" :)

[14:45] Mickorod Renard: I was thinking today,,that we are the jigsaw puzzle players,,not the jigsaw

[14:45] Calvino Rabeni: Sorry Bruce, if this is off track from our decisions

[14:45] Bruce: ;-)

[14:45] Bruce: You're right on target, Cal.

[14:45] Bruce: thanks!

[14:45] Violet: I think I understand...starting points over destinations?

[14:45] Gilles KuhnGilles Kuhnhello all

[14:45] Calvino Rabeni: I think perhaps it's good to entrust the process to whatever abilities the current leaders can support

[14:45] Mickorod Renard: Hi Gilles

[14:45] Calvino Rabeni: Long time no see, Gilles

[14:45] Violet: Hi Gilles

[14:45] Bruce: Hi, Gilles.

[14:46] boxy: oh! maybe gilles can explain this :)

[14:46] Bruce: Yes, I trust that the leaders will consider all of the points made here today.

[14:46] Gilles Kuhn: huh what alfred?

[14:46] Bruce: Only 15 minutes more...

[14:46] Bruce: Shall we choose a topic? Are there volunteers to lead?

[14:47] Bruce sure wishes Aph were here.

[14:47] Calvino Rabeni: Starting points over destinations, yes Atara, I'd go along with that

[14:47] Mickorod Renard: I seem to learn best from experience, but sometimes the obvious is not obvious until we either open our eyes or its pointed out,,thats the sort of fuel I was thinking about

[14:47] Violet: :)

[14:47] Calvino Rabeni: nods

[14:48] Mickorod Renard: but where to start,,mmmm

[14:48] boxy: sexuality, please :)

[14:48] Mickorod Renard: also one hour passes quickly

[14:49] Bruce wonders about "practice" and sexuality. . .

[14:49] boxy: we can do that

[14:49] Pila Mulligan: boxy, are you suggesting sexuality as a topic?

[14:49] boxy: yes

[14:49] Mickorod Renard: perhaps we could play it like going for a picnic,,and we all bring things relative to the whatever we are choosing to do

[14:49] Pila Mulligan: :)

[14:49] Bruce: Will you be a leader for that topic, Boxy?

[14:50] boxy: i need to know the goal first, Bruce

[14:50] boxy: what do i present and what's the purpose

[14:50] Bruce: Perhaps the journey BECOMES the goal . . . (or IS the goal). . . That is my concept of "practice," actually.

[14:50] Calvino Rabeni: Yes

[14:51] Pila Mulligan: do you have anything in particular in mind in suggesting the topic, boxy?

[14:51] Mickorod Renard: unless we choose we will repeat this each week

[14:51] boxy: yes, the path is always a journey, but paths do lead to places

[14:51] Mickorod Renard: samsara?

[14:51] Calvino Rabeni: Without prep, homework and a big context of understanding, an hour goes by like a flash

[14:51] Calvino Rabeni: :) Hi .. ummm, let's start ... what are we about .. oh maybe this . ok .. yes here's a half idea .. umm , hey times about up .. ok see you next time .. Byee ...

[14:52] Bruce: Perhaps you could define a "goal" for us as you develop the topic, Boxy.

[14:52] Mickorod Renard: he he

[14:52] Calvino Rabeni: Yes that makes sense Bruce

[14:52] Mickorod Renard: ok, if no one decides in the next 3 mins I will

[14:52] Calvino Rabeni zips lips

[14:52] Mickorod Renard: :))

[14:52] Bruce: Yes, we need a leader to give homework, context, goals for that topic, etc.

[14:52] boxy: go, Mick. I've no idea what is this about :)

[14:52] Violet: Maybe we can try and see where the wider topic of "Sexuality & Practice" leads...and if something more specific comes up, follow that; or follow a different structure, if that's too chaotic...

[14:53] Mickorod Renard: maybe there is substance in that

[14:53] Calvino Rabeni: Sexuality is a topic fraught with a lot of hidden boundaries and taboos ..

[14:53] Bruce: There is MUCH substance there. . .

[14:53] Calvino Rabeni: A light touch is recommended :)

[14:53] Mickorod Renard: Bruce and I are doing archetypes,,there is a link here

[14:54] Mickorod Renard: I am unsure where the sexuality bit is coming from

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: we could ,,i know

[14:55] Bruce: Boxy suggested it.

[14:55] Calvino Rabeni: When you proposed it Alfred, where's that coming from?

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: in dhama

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: one cannot have a sexual relationship

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: on the go

[14:55] Violet: I'd prefer delicacy, too :)

[14:55] Calvino Rabeni: yes

[14:55] Bruce: ;-)

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: and neither Catholic priests

[14:55] Mickorod Renard: so we could look into why this is so

[14:56] Mickorod Renard: the distraction of sex

[14:56] Mickorod Renard: and so forth

[14:56] Gilles Kuhn: neither any priest mickorod ;-)

[14:56] boxy: cal, indeed, which makes it an exciting journey :) how do we perceive sexuality? what is sexuality for us? where does it come from? how we deal with it? how is love related to sexuality? etc

[14:56] Calvino Rabeni: yes Alfred

[14:56] Bruce: Fascinating topic, Boxy.

[14:56] Mickorod Renard: and sex is also necessary for life

[14:56] Mickorod Renard: yet taboo in religion

[14:56] Bruce waits for leaders to volunteer . . . (four minutes).

[14:57] Gilles Kuhn: is there a biologist or an endocrinologist that could enlighten us?

[14:57] Calvino Rabeni: making friends with the topic would be a great result from a session or two

[14:57] Mickorod Renard: ok,,Alf and I will do it

[14:57] boxy: cause religion wants to own life itself

[14:57] Mickorod Renard: is that ok Alf?

[14:57] Bruce: (Yes, to Boxy and Mick leading it....)

[14:57] boxy: um, you do the sexuality?

[14:57] Bruce: ?

[14:57] Mickorod Renard: he he

[14:58] boxy: yes, Mick. i'm all for it :)

[14:58] Mickorod Renard: ok,,what bit are you doing?

[14:58] Violet: Hmm...well, I'm losing my connection...take care, everyone. Let's just see how things develop :)

[14:58] Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure I'd like to take my sexual cues from expert opinion .. whether priests, monks, or scientists ONLY

[14:58] Mickorod Renard: bye Atar

[14:58] Pila Mulligan: bye Atari

[14:58] Calvino Rabeni: Bye

[14:58] boxy: we can invite Morgano too :)

[14:58] Mickorod Renard: grin

[14:58] Calvino Rabeni: Who's that ?

[14:58] Mickorod Renard: don't ask

[14:58] boxy: don't tell

[14:59] boxy: :)

[14:59] Bruce: Next meeting in two weeks: Jan 26?

[14:59] Pila Mulligan: don't tell

[14:59] Pila Mulligan: :)

[14:59] Mickorod Renard: ok,,just a quickie..what do we do?

[14:59] boxy: gilles, i think you could say a thing or two on sexuality? :)

[14:59] Bruce: Boxy and Mick -- feed me information and I will send out emails (or you could also send out emails...)

[14:59] Mickorod Renard: can we volunteer info to be posted?

[14:59] Bruce: regarding homework,

[14:59] Mickorod Renard: ok great Bruce

[15:00] Mickorod Renard: homework,,look up what u can that may have some knowing

[15:00] Calvino Rabeni: The current month's leaders update the wiki page?

[15:00] Bruce: Sure! You can do anything you like... so long as it is within the WoK purpose statement.

[15:00] Mickorod Renard: to bring to the picnic

[15:00] Bruce: I usually update the wiki page..

[15:00] Mickorod Renard: picnic,,in two weeks

[15:00] Bruce: but others could also.

[15:00] Calvino Rabeni: okay

[15:00] Bruce: Just feed me whatever information you want there.

[15:00] Calvino Rabeni: thanks Bruce

[15:00] Bruce: Two weeks, then?

[15:00] Mickorod Renard: ok Great,,we need to get moving

[15:01] Mickorod Renard: and must then use these weeks to agree on next issue

[15:01] Mickorod Renard: darnt use topic

[15:01] Mickorod Renard: :)

[15:01] Mickorod Renard: thingy

[15:01] Bruce: "darnt"?

[15:01] Pila Mulligan: = dast not

[15:02] Mickorod Renard: he he

[15:02] Bruce: I don't understand.

[15:02] Pila Mulligan: Brti speak

[15:02] Pila Mulligan: Brit*

[15:02] boxy: sussing brits :)

[15:02] Mickorod Renard: one topic must be ' why do I volunteer'

[15:02] Mickorod Renard: he he

[15:03] boxy: um

[15:03] Bruce: Anyone else wish to offer anything for the good of the order?

[15:03] Calvino Rabeni: non-current-leaders remember .. please support your current leader in any way you can ... your turn will come

[15:03] Mickorod Renard: well, I feel quite happy that we have the wheels in motion

[15:03] Bruce: ok.

[15:03] Pila Mulligan: a benediction Bruce?

[15:04] Bruce: I shall post this log on the wiki.

[15:04] Bruce: and wait for Boxy and Mick to feed me more information, if they wish to.

[15:04] Bruce: May all be happy and well.

[15:04] Calvino Rabeni smiles at Bruce as the reigning benedictorian

[15:04] Mickorod Renard: just a point of interest,,does anyone know of the secret of the golden flower?

[15:04] Gilles Kuhn: to the word leader i prefer gentle organiser but well ;-)

[15:04] Calvino Rabeni: yes it's written in code

[15:04] Bruce: Not I, Mick.

[15:04] Calvino Rabeni: Pila might have more to say

[15:05] boxy: someone's gotta be, gilles :)

[15:05] Pila Mulligan: :)

[15:05] boxy: even if gentle

[15:05] Pila Mulligan: nice book

[15:05] Calvino Rabeni: I believe it's not written with the idea of being immediately comprehensible

[15:05] Mickorod Renard: thanks

[15:05] Mickorod Renard: maybe a topic?

[15:05] Pila Mulligan: the book as a topic?

[15:05] Mickorod Renard: is it big?

[15:06] Pila Mulligan: Cal's admonition applies

[15:06] Calvino Rabeni: no, it is deep

[15:06] Mickorod Renard: ahh

[15:06] Calvino Rabeni: sort of the quantum physics of Taoism

[15:06] Mickorod Renard: that's what we need then

[15:06] Calvino Rabeni: one paragraph per month would be about right

[15:06] Mickorod Renard: that should last us a few years