10.13.2011 - Metaphor: Treat or Trap?
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Version from 23:17, 13 Oct 2011
Be Ewing: All - Hi :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Be!
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome!
Be Ewing: thank you
Be Ewing: amazing what changing keyboards can do:)
Bruce Mowbray: I did that myself just today!!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pila!
Bruce Mowbray: Always good to see you.
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Be Ewing: Hi Pila ;)
oO0Oo: Hi Pila, Aph, Bruce :)
oO0Oo: and BE!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, 0!
Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again!
Pila Mulligan: hi
Be Ewing: Sam -- good to see you again too -- and Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Aloha :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza!
oO0Oo: Hey Eliza :)
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, San!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone, so nice to see you all
Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you too, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: thanks :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bonjour tout le monde :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Aggers!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
Mickorod Renard: Ags
Bruce Mowbray hopes Cal will attend -- His excellent essay is not to be missed:
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi all
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph
Be Ewing: Hi to All :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hye Be
Be Ewing: I was scanning Cal's essay
oO0Oo passes round platter with refreshments... hangs on to a donut and coffee ;)
Be Ewing: there is much to it
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I guess I don't need to ask if this group is still alive and kicking!
oO0Oo: care is in the air
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Be Ewing: wondering over here if I have kick gesture in inventory:)
oO0Oo: lol
Be Ewing: yes much care
Aphrodite Macbain: I have a boot to the head gesture
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Fc!
Be Ewing: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Fc
Eliza Madrigal sings ::yeah I get a kick out of you...::::
FcSeeker: Hi all
Pila Mulligan: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: prefer champagne
Eliza Madrigal: Hi FcS :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Fc is hiding behind Brucy's knees
Be Ewing: better than I got a boot out of you? ... but even that can be interpreted multiple different ways
oO0Oo: Hi Fc !
Be Ewing: Nice to see you Fc :)
FcSeeker: Be Pila Eliza Aph Aggers Bruce O Mick san
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Be
Chawan (Taupe): Don't you feel at one with nature now, Eliza Madrigal, so peaceful and relaxed.
oO0Oo: Be oot to the head
Aphrodite Macbain: Cal's essay is excellent but very meaty. Hard to digest right away
Mickorod Renard: I guess I missed Cal's piece, I am very lapse at reading the mails etc
Aphrodite Macbain: Boot to da head.
Santoshima: what?
Mickorod Renard: ouch
Be Ewing: Boot to my computer helps me often
Agatha Macbeth: Ow
oO0Oo wonders what Cal would be like if he ever became smart... lol
Aphrodite Macbain: never mind
Be Ewing: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Be Ewing: words are so imprecise
Aphrodite Macbain: unbearable
Mickorod Renard: I don't suppose you have a handy copy
Be Ewing: and lots of people love to play with them too
Aphrodite Macbain: look up, look waaaaay up
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, the essay is a mind-blower -- a blinding light -- a photo-electric cell of great magnitude.
Aphrodite Macbain: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian_Pages/Guardians'_Contributions/Calvino/Ways_of_Knowing/Metaphors_about_Metaphors
Aphrodite Macbain: there you are Mick
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Be Ewing: and that's just in English too:)
oO0Oo: hehe
Aphrodite Macbain: meerde alors
Bruce Mowbray: Let's begin.
Be Ewing: I can only imagine what that essay might translate too in multiple different languages
oO0Oo: like a super nova under the covers
Bruce Mowbray listens.
oO0Oo listens
Aphrodite Macbain listens
Bruce Mowbray: It (Cal's essay) makes the earth shake for moi.
Aphrodite Macbain: for those who have had a chance to have read and digested it, could they give a summary?
Aphrodite Macbain: Are we discussing Cal's paper, Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Scroll down to "A Tentative Summary" -- and there's the beef.
oO0Oo: for those who have not done their homework?
Aphrodite Macbain: oh good. thanks
Aphrodite Macbain blushes
Bruce Mowbray: I don't know what we're discussing -- I am open to the group's preferences.
Bruce Mowbray: The theme is "Metaphors - Treat or Trap"
Bruce Mowbray: Personally, I'd like to discuss metaphor as a way of knowing.
Bruce Mowbray: -- perhaps a way of connecting experiences.
Aphrodite Macbain: and I'd like to consider how they are traps
Be Ewing: they can be both
Aphrodite Macbain: how they may up restricting how we think about things
Be Ewing: they can help bridge communication between/among people
Aphrodite Macbain: Everything Cal says in his summary points out the usefulness of metaphors
Be Ewing: but -- some can used them -- as excuse to trap/attack people
Be Ewing: to show their one ups-manship for example
Be Ewing: also legally they can be dangerous
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm I wasn't thinking about an aggressive trap. Rather a trap that restricts the way we think about things
Be Ewing: ah
Bruce Mowbray: My mother: "You know males; they have to play with their toys." (weapons, from cap guns to atomic bombs).
Bruce Mowbray: Couldn't every "frame" be a sort of trap?
Aphrodite Macbain: Like our discussions in email about the metaphor of the river
Bruce Mowbray: yes, please say more, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: (too bad Zen's not here)
Be Ewing: A meandering way?
Aphrodite Macbain: No, I talked about watching the river - as in the world going by the way it will
Be Ewing: river I mean?
Bruce Mowbray: Are you referring to Zen's metaphor, "I am the river"?
Aphrodite Macbain: and Zen said , no, it should be considered not as something to be watched but something to be within, part of it
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, Bruce
Be Ewing: well it can be both
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: but it felt like it had to be either/or
Be Ewing: ah
Be Ewing: I don't do well with either/or :)
Aphrodite Macbain: each person using a metaphor may have their own understanding of it which could be inapplicable to others
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that Zen had a pretty clear "frame" in mind with that metaphor -- and it had nothing to do with his ability to swim - or not.
Be Ewing: Aph ... agreed
Aphrodite Macbain: Be, do you want to say more?
Be Ewing: Aph -- not quite right now
Aphrodite Macbain: ok
Be Ewing: but thanks for asking
Aphrodite Macbain: So I was going to say that metaphors can be useful to explain something complex or abstract but
Aphrodite Macbain: at the same time it perhaps simplifies the issues because it is simplifying it
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm
Bruce Mowbray: Cal says: "They provide efficient, nuanced communication that references multiple levels of knowing at once."
Aphrodite Macbain: And everyone has their own understanding of the metaphor or allegory that is given
Aphrodite Macbain: Right
Aphrodite Macbain: But I don't know if they are all that efficient
Bruce Mowbray: so "multiple levels" can be different things to different folks.
Be Ewing: true
Aphrodite Macbain: I'll be quiet now...:-)
Be Ewing: "multiple levels' means many, many things to me
Be Ewing: your thoughts are wonderful, Aph.
Mickorod Renard: I think a metaphor does simplify 'it' but at the same time is not an exact reference and thus the listener has to unravel it a little, and in this way helps it become untangled
Be Ewing: Aph -- please keep talking
Bruce Mowbray: Just a neutral question -- (Don't want to raise any eyebrows, here, but. . . ) Is "pure awareness" a metaphor that can be understood on multiple levels" Or does it mean ONE THING?
Aphrodite Macbain: good question, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: (scary question, Aph)
Eliza Madrigal: yes like to leave unraveling space, Mick :)
FcSeeker: Hello Ari
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Ari
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Ari!
Be Ewing: Bruce -- I would say multiple levels
Arisia Vita: Hi all, so good to see you
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ari
Agatha Macbeth: Ari :)
Be Ewing: meaning "pure awareness" includes all
Pila Mulligan: hi Ari
Be Ewing: at same time though that all can be just one
Bruce Mowbray: Cal, again: "They provide poetic or artistic means of expression and communication." ("pure awareness" -- artistic expression?)
Be Ewing: so depends whether you are talking about/meaning one, all or both concepts
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose the question might be, what purpose does a metaphor best serve, and where is it misleading?
Bruce Mowbray: The metaphor seems to be a "mix", Be.
Aphrodite Macbain: Mixed metaphors are particularly perplexing!
Be Ewing: multiple levels of perception/dimensions then
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm curious what others might think
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that the "power" and effectiveness of metaphors is in their ability to bring together different "levels" and different experiences - - - participation, connection, integration.
Aphrodite Macbain: Can you give an example of that Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Sure.
Bruce Mowbray: Here is a poem by Carl Sandburg:
Bruce Mowbray:
The voice of the last cricket
across the first frost
is one kind of Goodbye.
It is so thin a splinter
of singing.
("Splinter" by Carl Sandburg)
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps someone who has not spoken yet would care to comment on the "different levels" and different "worlds" brought together here.
Aphrodite Macbain: how are different levels of experiences brought together?
Bruce Mowbray: Do crickets have voices? - - - Do you?
Aphrodite Macbain: Pila? Fc? Aggers?
Agatha Macbeth: 42
Bruce Mowbray: Do crickets say "Goodbye"? Do you?
Aphrodite Macbain: wrong number
Bruce Mowbray: 42!!!!
Agatha Macbeth: Doh
Bruce Mowbray: I love it!
Agatha Macbeth: Or 666...
Aphrodite Macbain: yikes
Bruce Mowbray: Cal, again: "They support the presence and participation of body and emotion in the process of thinking, expressing, communicating."
Bruce Mowbray: a cricket rubs it's legs together and Sandburg calls that a "voice" saying "goodbye."
FcSeeker: in case I understood right what crickets is, I'd say 'they talk a lot' :)<3<3<3
Aphrodite Macbain: Can we apply the same principles to allegories as we are doing to metaphors?
Bruce Mowbray: :))))))) @ Fc!!!!!
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth hugs FC
Bruce Mowbray: they sing until the first frost, Fc.
Aphrodite Macbain: then they are very thinly quiet
Bruce Mowbray: excellent question, Aph.
FcSeeker: (the sound when you step the ice to be broken; that's crickets ?)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh beautiful, Fc. . . another poem in the works, there!
Bruce Mowbray: Allegory: This^1 is to that^1 as this^2 is to that^2. ("abc" is to "def" as "pqr" is to "?") -- "stu"?
Actually, I thought a whole lot about Aph's question during this week. . . and I "concluded" that allegories are elaborate metaphors - - and also more precise. Therefore, computer programs can be written to do allegories --- but I'm not clear about whether they can do metaphors, yet. -- Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: If no one has anything to contribute, I can quote a story that was given today. I'd be curious if everyone gets the same "moral" from it.
Be Ewing: (crickets are small animals usually live between spring and winter)
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Agatha Macbeth: He's a poetic panda :)
Aphrodite Macbain: or a simile
Mickorod Renard: sounds good Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: OK here goes;
Aphrodite Macbain: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian_Pages/Guardians'_Contributions/Calvino/Ways_of_Knowing/Metaphors_about_Metaphors
FcSeeker: ahhh
FcSeeker: lol
FcSeeker: ok
Aphrodite Macbain: oopps. wrong thing. Hold on
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) so good to see someone else does that!
Aphrodite Macbain: OK by Moon Fargis:
Aphrodite Macbain: Moon Fargis:
Once a Man lost his Loving wife. While his wife was dying, he gave her the promise that that he will not marry again.
The man remain truthful to his dead wife for a while but destiny had stored some thing else for him. He fell in love again.
He fell so deep in love that he forgot about his promise and he married again. Its natural for a man to forget promises, wedding dates, and birthday but a woman always cherishes these things.
On his wedding Night he saw his dead wife's Ghost, who complained about the broken promise. The man was surprised to see the ghost of his dead wife but now he could do nothing about it, so he kept quite. But his dead wife ghost could not accept this betrayal and She kept coming back everyday and telling word by word what transpires between the man and his new wife.
Tired by complaints and threats from the Ghost one day the man went to a Sage. The Sage said "the Ghost is very intelligent. Next time she comes, just pick one handful of grain from a sack and ask her how many grains are there in your hand."
When the Ghost came that night, the man did the same. He filled his hand with grains from a sack and asked the Ghost, "Tell me how many grains are there in my hand?" The Ghost immediately disappeared and never returned again.
Most of time what we believe and see in this world is a Projection of our mind. We can only see those things which we are already aware of. The mind projects things from the past. That Ghost was a creation of the mind and so are most of our problems. If we stop projecting things then 99% of our problems will disappear like the Ghost in this story.
Aphrodite Macbain: So ...
Aphrodite Macbain: is that the moral you got from the story?
Agatha Macbeth: I hate it when stuff vanishes before you can read it.
Aphrodite Macbain: Nobody in the group agreed.
Be Ewing: Be in the Now is what I got
Bruce Mowbray thinks, ghostly.
Aphrodite Macbain: scroll up Aggers, scroll up
Be Ewing: that often we just haunt ourselves
Agatha Macbeth: S'okay i read it from chat :p
Aphrodite Macbain: so, that's B's take.
Bruce Mowbray: modern psychology, of course, would say that the ghost itself was a projection. . . but that begs the question.
Mickorod Renard: I thought his dead wife was selfish
oO0Oo pokes Aggers while she scrolls
Aphrodite Macbain: I could not see the pint of the handful of grain
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: (owww)
Aphrodite Macbain: or point
Agatha Macbeth: Pint of grain please
Aphrodite Macbain: there's no point to this
Bruce Mowbray loves "We haunt ourselves."
Agatha Macbeth: We do
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Eliza Madrigal: yes
oO0Oo nods
Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza, what do you think?
oO0Oo: notice the haunting... that moment when..
Aphrodite Macbain: when...?
Eliza Madrigal: made me think of grounding but then, I'm practical with ghosts
oO0Oo: awareness happens
FcSeeker: brb
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: what is more important, the awareness or the moment it happens?
oO0Oo: an instant when we could be any metaphor
Aphrodite Macbain: I could think of a number
Agatha Macbeth: and double it
oO0Oo: scary opportunity... but before that judgement just the openness
FcSeeker: b
Arisia Vita: wb
oO0Oo: wb
Bruce Mowbray: If we are completely "open," then everything can "participate in/as/with us.
Agatha Macbeth: wb, FC
Aphrodite Macbain: openness = awareness?
FcSeeker: ty
Bruce Mowbray: I think that "silence" is another of those metaphors. . .
Mickorod Renard: many things, like metaphors or even parables mean things to the person at that place in their life, and at another time and place something different
oO0Oo: worth looking into
Aphrodite Macbain: my point was that there are so many ways to read a metaphor or an allegory depending on what culture you are from that I wonder about its usefulness
Bruce Mowbray: I have never known "silence" -- I can always hear my heart beating and my nervous system in operation. . . but that's a literal interpretation of silence. . .
Eliza Madrigal: the silent cave of Eden's haiku... and so agree Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: agreed Mick
Be Ewing: Bruce -- what about when you space out? veg out? zone out? ... whatever you call it
FcSeeker: the story is difficult to this panda because all else is possible to happen in RL/SL, but that the ghost would go away for such question...
Bruce Mowbray: So, "silence" as Eden uses it means something else. . . something much larger.
Be Ewing: for example, it happens when daydreaming -- one example
Aphrodite Macbain: a quiet brain?
Be Ewing: yes Aph
FcSeeker: so I might be too serious minded person to make any opinions of the story
Arisia Vita: welcome Cal
Be Ewing: a quiet brain
Bruce Mowbray ponders Be's question.
FcSeeker: Hello Cal
Aphrodite Macbain looks around for Cal.Welcome Cal
Be Ewing: that's often where issues get resolved for me -- when the jigsaw puzzle begins to complete itself
Mickorod Renard: Hi cal
Be Ewing: when solutions just appear
oO0Oo: layers of abstraction... in communication... metaphors of a kind of exponential possibility and wormhole like splash of meaning, but as with all communication... there is assumption and constant approximation... serendipity gives wonder moments
FcSeeker: but...rises something else to tell...
Bruce Mowbray: Eden wrote:
::: When it's beyond words
::: Silence is a healing cave
::: _/!\_
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cal, don't be shy
Arisia Vita: leave that to me Cal :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ha
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Calvino
oO0Oo: Hi cal
Bruce Mowbray: We've been quoting you right and left, Cal (or I have, anyway). Welcome!
Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyone
Eliza Madrigal is being fed avocado slices by sushi-making daughter, so that I won't haunt her about her room
Be Ewing: Cal -- good to see/meet you:)
Mickorod Renard: hi cal,,:)
Calvino Rabeni: :) I have tech probs today
Agatha Macbeth: He's doing a Susan today :p
oO0Oo: ::round of applause for Cal's essay::
Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
Calvino Rabeni: ty :)
Aphrodite Macbain APPLAUDS!!!
Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
Arisia Vita: claps
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth claps
Mickorod Renard: yeyyy
Aphrodite Macbain: shy guy
Agatha Macbeth: Take a bow CR
Aphrodite Macbain APPLAUDS!!!
Bruce Mowbray: Brilliantly written, Cal. THANK you!
Be Ewing: APPLAUSE!!!!
Agatha Macbeth: and don't walk into the wall :D
Calvino Rabeni BLUSHES
Aphrodite Macbain: yayy
Agatha Macbeth: (must be laggy)
Bruce Mowbray: So, I'm still concerned with this "framing" thing -- and it makes me think of last week's question about whether metaphors can be "evil" - or used for evil purposes.
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps "unethical" is a better term.
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't understand why this was a question
Agatha Macbeth: Can't everything?
Be Ewing: Bruce -- I believe they can by judges for example sometimes
Aphrodite Macbain: exactly, aggers
Be Ewing: but I don't have any literal quotes
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth smiles
Be Ewing: I am not a student of words -- excuse me
Aphrodite Macbain: I think Boxy said that but amended his statement to "useful and not useful"
Bruce Mowbray: but not unethical?
Calvino Rabeni: Nice turnout ! Thanks Bruce for all your care and setup :)
Aphrodite Macbain: many things can be unethical
Agatha Macbeth: Yay for Brucie
Bruce Mowbray: Mitt Romney: Those protestors in New York are a MOB!"
Aphrodite Macbain: why focus on metaphors?
Bruce Mowbray: incrimination through association.
Bruce Mowbray: verbal/semantic association.
Bruce Mowbray: metaphoric association.
Be Ewing: What is your definition of ethical? ... similar to Beauty is in Eye of Beholder? ... or an absolute? .. and if an absolute how do you define it?
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- How about this one:
Bruce Mowbray: Einstein said that God does not play dice with the universe.
Bruce Mowbray: Is that an ethical metaphor?
Be Ewing: I see it as a personal opinion
Aphrodite Macbain: and it is open to interpretation
Be Ewing: much, much interpretation
Mickorod Renard: and relative to a point he was making
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray has images of gambling. . . . dens of iniquity. . .
Aphrodite Macbain: we need a context for any metaphor
Calvino Rabeni: I think no opinion is purely personal, especially if it becomes current in a culture's ways of thinking, it is political
Be Ewing: /well Einstein did play around on occasions:)
oO0Oo has images of images
Bruce Mowbray: Was his "framing" ethical?
Aphrodite Macbain: neither ethical nor unethical
Bruce Mowbray: What was the point? ------- He was trying to combat quantum mechanics -- and randomness.
Aphrodite Macbain: what does it matter?
Be Ewing: all things are energy -- exactly
Aphrodite Macbain: whether it was ethical or not within the context of this discussion?
Be Ewing: so where does all this matter come into play?
Bruce Mowbray: It is an example of how metaphors can be used unethically -- I feel..... by setting up a certain framework for future knowing.
Aphrodite Macbain: what is the question?
Aphrodite Macbain: are metaphors useful? or are they always ethical?
Mickorod Renard: I think his point was, and I may be wrong, that there is an explanation for things, something that could be calculated, rather than not
Bruce Mowbray: the question is ways of knowing. . . and how metaphors contribute to that . . . and whether metaphors can be used in unethical ways. . . by framing something in a biased way.
FcSeeker: is it metaphor to create an image in mind and give it foreword ?
Aphrodite Macbain: you are talking about the Einstein's quote Mick?
Mickorod Renard: sorry yes
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Mick, a universe of ORDER -- not a random one. . . But to call in images of gambling?
Aphrodite Macbain: and my point is that we don't know what he meant- or we can't agree, so how useful is it as a metaphor?
Bruce Mowbray: OK, then we cannot call a metaphor unethical?
Be Ewing: okay ... so why do we use words at all and why do we have so many wordsmiths among us?
Aphrodite Macbain: should metaphors be universally understood one way to be useful?
Mickorod Renard: I think it is useful, cos most folk believe that gambling is reckless
Calvino Rabeni: The metaphor suggests there's something slightly dangerous about regarding the universe as random
Calvino Rabeni: unseemly
Calvino Rabeni: so it says something
Calvino Rabeni: ethical
Be Ewing: I am neutral to gambling -- like most everything it can be good and it can be bad -- but you can't have one of those without the other
Aphrodite Macbain: god is unethical?
Calvino Rabeni: randomness might be associated with nihilism or a dissipatory life-style
Calvino Rabeni: not god, but people, who believe and pattern themselves after god
Be Ewing: and if one knows the statistical odds -- can be very profitable at times:)
Calvino Rabeni: god could be considered a metaphor for the better qualities of human nature
Calvino Rabeni: as god is anthropomorphic, usually
Be Ewing: perhaps that is another discussion?
FcSeeker takes a humble bow
Eliza Madrigal waves to FcS
FcSeeker: namaste
Mickorod Renard: bye fc
oO0Oo: Fc :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Fc :))
Be Ewing: namaste
Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear! I just realized what time it is.
Arisia Vita: bye Fc
Bruce Mowbray: Shall we decide on a topic for next week?
Bruce Mowbray: Do you want to continue this one?
Be Ewing: well we touched on quite a few possibilities
Calvino Rabeni: metaphor as a "way of knowing" ?
Bruce Mowbray: Cal said this, "They are more than figures of speech or conceptual structures; more than descriptive of logic-like statements about the world. They are intrinsically gestural and participatory -- ways of being in and of the world."
-- and that is at least a full session right there!
Bruce Mowbray: I suggest we use "ways of being in the world" (through metaphor, perhaps) as a launching pad for next week's discussion.
Bruce Mowbray: open to any other suggestions, though.
Mickorod Renard: fine with me Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ty.
Bruce Mowbray waits and listens.
Agatha Macbeth listens and waits
Calvino Rabeni: sounds good to me
Aphrodite Macbain: Big topic
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we can narrow it down a bit
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for all your work and attentiveness Bruce, and nice writing (as often) Cal, and thanks Aph for the story...
Mickorod Renard: that's a good idea Aph
Agatha Macbeth nods
Be Ewing: Diverse discussion
Aphrodite Macbain: ways of being in the world: as a person, as a society? which world?
Be Ewing: Cal -- thanks for the starting point!
Bruce Mowbray: enormous topic -- and an important one, too.
Arisia Vita: a friend asks my help, so I will go, for that is my pleasure... see you all soon I hope
Arisia Vita: be well and happy
Mickorod Renard: bye Ari
Agatha Macbeth: Take care ari :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Ari!
Arisia Vita: bye for now
Be Ewing: Arisia and All -- take care and miles of smiles :)
oO0Oo: bye Ari
Aphrodite Macbain: By Ari - you helpful person!
Eliza Madrigal waves to Ari
Bruce Mowbray: I was wondering -- for the sake of the WoK group itself . . . . does anyone wish to say anything?
Aphrodite Macbain: Can we narrow the subject down before we leave and decide who's going to raise it?
Bruce Mowbray: Surfe, Aph, we can try.
Bruce Mowbray: sure*
Aphrodite Macbain: Surfe?
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth pictures Aph on a surf board
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain pulls out her surf board
Agatha Macbeth: snap
Aphrodite Macbain: crackle
Be Ewing: pop
Agatha Macbeth: It's deja vu
Bruce Mowbray: "ways of being in the world" (through metaphor, perhaps) as a launching pad for next week's discussion
Aphrodite Macbain: getting hungry
oO0Oo: metaphor as way of knowing like a surfer knows the world by the wave
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth waves to 0
Aphrodite Macbain: mind hurts
Be Ewing: :)
Calvino Rabeni: nice metaphor, Sam
Bruce Mowbray: Metaphor as a way of knowing. . .
Be Ewing: All take care :)
oO0Oo: hey Ags! :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Be!
Calvino Rabeni: bring a poem ?
Mickorod Renard: are you suggesting that we just recite metaphors Bruce?
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now Be
Aphrodite Macbain: by weight, touch and sound
Mickorod Renard: bye Ags
Calvino Rabeni: deconstruct something :)
Mickorod Renard: bye be
Agatha Macbeth: Haven't gone yet...
Bruce Mowbray: great idea, Cal -- Everyone bring a poem to illustrate the point -- or not.
Mickorod Renard: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. That sounds useful. We're all good at deconstructing
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth swats Mick
Bruce Mowbray: A poem that illustrates how metaphor offers a way of knowing....
Aphrodite Macbain: or a large metaphor we live by
Calvino Rabeni hopes we can put humpty dumpty back together again
Bruce Mowbray does too.
Calvino Rabeni: Sure Aph,
Agatha Macbeth: The yolk's on him
Mickorod Renard: ok,,so anyone's Poem?
Calvino Rabeni: the hero's journey?
Aphrodite Macbain picks up a piece of shell from under her shoe
Bruce Mowbray: Anyone's poem -- or your own -- either one.
Calvino Rabeni: waiting for a train?
Mickorod Renard: ok,,great
Mickorod Renard: :))
Calvino Rabeni: Life as a dharma merry-go-round
Calvino Rabeni: etc.
Aphrodite Macbain: karma is a metaphor
Agatha Macbeth: Metta phor
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am off to bed, Friday looms
Calvino Rabeni: what seems meaningful ... the speaker's meaning ... yours
oO0Oo: Bye Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: thanks heaps
Agatha Macbeth: Loom well Mick
Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
Bruce Mowbray: Aph, I feel that EVERY "spiritual" term, without exception, is a metaphor.
Mickorod Renard: byeeeeee
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Mick thanks for your helpful contributions
Calvino Rabeni: Row row row your boat
Bruce Mowbray: BYEEEEE!
Eliza Madrigal: Eliza Madrigal waves warmly to Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: OK, then. I'm a bit vague about how this chat gets posted. . . Shall I do that?
Calvino Rabeni: Please do, Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: I don't have it
Bruce Mowbray: This is a Kira venue, so I'm not clear on the frames.
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not sure if it is automatically recorded. Is it Eliza? Cal?
Bruce Mowbray: I have it on my hard drive.
Calvino Rabeni: frames/
Aphrodite Macbain: Frames of seeing
Bruce Mowbray: frames, indeed!
Calvino Rabeni: no, you take it from your computer chat log
Eliza Madrigal: it isn't automatically recorded, no
Calvino Rabeni: and make a new page on the wiki
Agatha Macbeth: We need an autologger here...
Calvino Rabeni: and paste it in
Eliza Madrigal: and it seems fine to post to the discussions, nods
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I've got it on computer. so I will post it.
Calvino Rabeni: actually Bruce, I like to take off the timestamps too
Calvino Rabeni: if they are there
Bruce Mowbray: Did anyone else wish to say anything about WoK?
Eliza Madrigal: should there be a desire to really 'restart' the workshop, then it is a good idea to talk to Maxine
Calvino Rabeni: if you want me to do it, send me the file
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce. Yes, they are a nuisance
Eliza Madrigal: and attend a Kira team meeting
Bruce Mowbray: I will delete the timestamps, np.
Calvino Rabeni: ty much Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: I know nothing of Kira team meetings, sry.
Agatha Macbeth: Better to turn em off beforehand
oO0Oo: shout out to Stim and gaya and anyone else who haunts the ways of knowing !
Eliza Madrigal: and at the meeting one would propose and take initiative...
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: How is Gaya?
Calvino Rabeni: Exempt from public haunt
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: WHERE is Gaya?
Eliza Madrigal: she is taking classes, as I understand
Bruce Mowbray loves "exempt from public haunt" -- ME TOO!
Agatha Macbeth: Bless her
Aphrodite Macbain: Congratulations Bruce. I feel, like last time, that we haven't adequately dealt with the topic. Cal has put a lot of thought into his essay and I don't think everyone totally understood what was happening. I wonder if we could revisit the subject
Aphrodite Macbain: next week
Bruce Mowbray: definitely, Aph -- and I agree with you entirely.
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps focusing on something
Eliza Madrigal: I'll be reading on the wiki mostly, but thanks and I'm glad i made it here today
Aphrodite Macbain: What do you think, everyone?
Bruce Mowbray: BRING that with you, please.
Aphrodite Macbain: (who's left)
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS for joining in, Eliza!
Aphrodite Macbain: It needs some preparatory work Bruce. and an agreement by everyone
Agatha Macbeth: Thx Liz, take care
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: wish you the best, and it would be a good idea to talk to Maxine re the official things :)
Agatha Macbeth: (you really do need wings btw)
Bruce Mowbray remembers the Little Red Hen....
Eliza Madrigal: she is ever with me :)
Bruce Mowbray: "Very well, then, I shall do it myself." And she did!
Agatha Macbeth: I remember the little red rooster
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: cluck cluck
oO0Oo: leading by example as metaphor for fruition
Bruce Mowbray: Pila! How ARE you!!!????
Bruce Mowbray: (silent one).
Aphrodite Macbain: and pickiness
Agatha Macbeth: Silence is golden
Eliza Madrigal: bye everyone :) waves
Pila Mulligan: hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Liz!
oO0Oo: wings to all... be well
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth waves
Agatha Macbeth: I'll be away the noo
Bruce Mowbray: I was hoping you could enlighten us about the metaphorical I Ching -- or not so metaphorical.
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain flaps hers
Agatha Macbeth: tc
oO0Oo: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bruce Mowbray: tc, aggers!
Bruce Mowbray hopes that we've breathed a bit of life back into WoK today.
Bruce Mowbray: Time for moi to move along. Carry on, good people!
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain takes a deep breath
Pila Mulligan: bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! everyone.
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Bye!
Bruce Mowbray: yw! THANK YOU, Aph!
Current version
Be Ewing: All - Hi :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Be!
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome!
Be Ewing: thank you
Be Ewing: amazing what changing keyboards can do:)
Bruce Mowbray: I did that myself just today!!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pila!
Bruce Mowbray: Always good to see you.
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Be Ewing: Hi Pila ;)
oO0Oo: Hi Pila, Aph, Bruce :)
oO0Oo: and BE!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, 0!
Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again!
Pila Mulligan: hi
Be Ewing: Sam -- good to see you again too -- and Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Aloha :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza!
oO0Oo: Hey Eliza :)
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, San!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone, so nice to see you all
Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you too, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: thanks :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bonjour tout le monde :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Aggers!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
Mickorod Renard: Ags
Bruce Mowbray hopes Cal will attend -- His excellent essay is not to be missed:
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi all
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph
Be Ewing: Hi to All :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hye Be
Be Ewing: I was scanning Cal's essay
oO0Oo passes round platter with refreshments... hangs on to a donut and coffee ;)
Be Ewing: there is much to it
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I guess I don't need to ask if this group is still alive and kicking!
oO0Oo: care is in the air
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Be Ewing: wondering over here if I have kick gesture in inventory:)
oO0Oo: lol
Be Ewing: yes much care
Aphrodite Macbain: I have a boot to the head gesture
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Fc!
Be Ewing: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Fc
Eliza Madrigal sings ::yeah I get a kick out of you...::::
FcSeeker: Hi all
Pila Mulligan: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: prefer champagne
Eliza Madrigal: Hi FcS :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Fc is hiding behind Brucy's knees
Be Ewing: better than I got a boot out of you? ... but even that can be interpreted multiple different ways
oO0Oo: Hi Fc !
Be Ewing: Nice to see you Fc :)
FcSeeker: Be Pila Eliza Aph Aggers Bruce O Mick san
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Be
Chawan (Taupe): Don't you feel at one with nature now, Eliza Madrigal, so peaceful and relaxed.
oO0Oo: Be oot to the head
Aphrodite Macbain: Cal's essay is excellent but very meaty. Hard to digest right away
Mickorod Renard: I guess I missed Cal's piece, I am very lapse at reading the mails etc
Aphrodite Macbain: Boot to da head.
Santoshima: what?
Mickorod Renard: ouch
Be Ewing: Boot to my computer helps me often
Agatha Macbeth: Ow
oO0Oo wonders what Cal would be like if he ever became smart... lol
Aphrodite Macbain: never mind
Be Ewing: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Be Ewing: words are so imprecise
Aphrodite Macbain: unbearable
Mickorod Renard: I don't suppose you have a handy copy
Be Ewing: and lots of people love to play with them too
Aphrodite Macbain: look up, look waaaaay up
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, the essay is a mind-blower -- a blinding light -- a photo-electric cell of great magnitude.
Aphrodite Macbain: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian_Pages/Guardians'_Contributions/Calvino/Ways_of_Knowing/Metaphors_about_Metaphors
Aphrodite Macbain: there you are Mick
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Be Ewing: and that's just in English too:)
oO0Oo: hehe
Aphrodite Macbain: meerde alors
Bruce Mowbray: Let's begin.
Be Ewing: I can only imagine what that essay might translate too in multiple different languages
oO0Oo: like a super nova under the covers
Bruce Mowbray listens.
oO0Oo listens
Aphrodite Macbain listens
Bruce Mowbray: It (Cal's essay) makes the earth shake for moi.
Aphrodite Macbain: for those who have had a chance to have read and digested it, could they give a summary?
Aphrodite Macbain: Are we discussing Cal's paper, Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Scroll down to "A Tentative Summary" -- and there's the beef.
oO0Oo: for those who have not done their homework?
Aphrodite Macbain: oh good. thanks
Aphrodite Macbain blushes
Bruce Mowbray: I don't know what we're discussing -- I am open to the group's preferences.
Bruce Mowbray: The theme is "Metaphors - Treat or Trap"
Bruce Mowbray: Personally, I'd like to discuss metaphor as a way of knowing.
Bruce Mowbray: -- perhaps a way of connecting experiences.
Aphrodite Macbain: and I'd like to consider how they are traps
Be Ewing: they can be both
Aphrodite Macbain: how they may up restricting how we think about things
Be Ewing: they can help bridge communication between/among people
Aphrodite Macbain: Everything Cal says in his summary points out the usefulness of metaphors
Be Ewing: but -- some can used them -- as excuse to trap/attack people
Be Ewing: to show their one ups-manship for example
Be Ewing: also legally they can be dangerous
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm I wasn't thinking about an aggressive trap. Rather a trap that restricts the way we think about things
Be Ewing: ah
Bruce Mowbray: My mother: "You know males; they have to play with their toys." (weapons, from cap guns to atomic bombs).
Bruce Mowbray: Couldn't every "frame" be a sort of trap?
Aphrodite Macbain: Like our discussions in email about the metaphor of the river
Bruce Mowbray: yes, please say more, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: (too bad Zen's not here)
Be Ewing: A meandering way?
Aphrodite Macbain: No, I talked about watching the river - as in the world going by the way it will
Be Ewing: river I mean?
Bruce Mowbray: Are you referring to Zen's metaphor, "I am the river"?
Aphrodite Macbain: and Zen said , no, it should be considered not as something to be watched but something to be within, part of it
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, Bruce
Be Ewing: well it can be both
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: but it felt like it had to be either/or
Be Ewing: ah
Be Ewing: I don't do well with either/or :)
Aphrodite Macbain: each person using a metaphor may have their own understanding of it which could be inapplicable to others
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that Zen had a pretty clear "frame" in mind with that metaphor -- and it had nothing to do with his ability to swim - or not.
Be Ewing: Aph ... agreed
Aphrodite Macbain: Be, do you want to say more?
Be Ewing: Aph -- not quite right now
Aphrodite Macbain: ok
Be Ewing: but thanks for asking
Aphrodite Macbain: So I was going to say that metaphors can be useful to explain something complex or abstract but
Aphrodite Macbain: at the same time it perhaps simplifies the issues because it is simplifying it
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm
Bruce Mowbray: Cal says: "They provide efficient, nuanced communication that references multiple levels of knowing at once."
Aphrodite Macbain: And everyone has their own understanding of the metaphor or allegory that is given
Aphrodite Macbain: Right
Aphrodite Macbain: But I don't know if they are all that efficient
Bruce Mowbray: so "multiple levels" can be different things to different folks.
Be Ewing: true
Aphrodite Macbain: I'll be quiet now...:-)
Be Ewing: "multiple levels' means many, many things to me
Be Ewing: your thoughts are wonderful, Aph.
Mickorod Renard: I think a metaphor does simplify 'it' but at the same time is not an exact reference and thus the listener has to unravel it a little, and in this way helps it become untangled
Be Ewing: Aph -- please keep talking
Bruce Mowbray: Just a neutral question -- (Don't want to raise any eyebrows, here, but. . . ) Is "pure awareness" a metaphor that can be understood on multiple levels" Or does it mean ONE THING?
Aphrodite Macbain: good question, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: (scary question, Aph)
Eliza Madrigal: yes like to leave unraveling space, Mick :)
FcSeeker: Hello Ari
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Ari
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Ari!
Be Ewing: Bruce -- I would say multiple levels
Arisia Vita: Hi all, so good to see you
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ari
Agatha Macbeth: Ari :)
Be Ewing: meaning "pure awareness" includes all
Pila Mulligan: hi Ari
Be Ewing: at same time though that all can be just one
Bruce Mowbray: Cal, again: "They provide poetic or artistic means of expression and communication." ("pure awareness" -- artistic expression?)
Be Ewing: so depends whether you are talking about/meaning one, all or both concepts
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose the question might be, what purpose does a metaphor best serve, and where is it misleading?
Bruce Mowbray: The metaphor seems to be a "mix", Be.
Aphrodite Macbain: Mixed metaphors are particularly perplexing!
Be Ewing: multiple levels of perception/dimensions then
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm curious what others might think
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that the "power" and effectiveness of metaphors is in their ability to bring together different "levels" and different experiences - - - participation, connection, integration.
Aphrodite Macbain: Can you give an example of that Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Sure.
Bruce Mowbray: Here is a poem by Carl Sandburg:
Bruce Mowbray:
The voice of the last cricket
across the first frost
is one kind of Goodbye.
It is so thin a splinter
of singing.
("Splinter" by Carl Sandburg)
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps someone who has not spoken yet would care to comment on the "different levels" and different "worlds" brought together here.
Aphrodite Macbain: how are different levels of experiences brought together?
Bruce Mowbray: Do crickets have voices? - - - Do you?
Aphrodite Macbain: Pila? Fc? Aggers?
Agatha Macbeth: 42
Bruce Mowbray: Do crickets say "Goodbye"? Do you?
Aphrodite Macbain: wrong number
Bruce Mowbray: 42!!!!
Agatha Macbeth: Doh
Bruce Mowbray: I love it!
Agatha Macbeth: Or 666...
Aphrodite Macbain: yikes
Bruce Mowbray: Cal, again: "They support the presence and participation of body and emotion in the process of thinking, expressing, communicating."
Bruce Mowbray: a cricket rubs it's legs together and Sandburg calls that a "voice" saying "goodbye."
FcSeeker: in case I understood right what crickets is, I'd say 'they talk a lot' :)<3<3<3
Aphrodite Macbain: Can we apply the same principles to allegories as we are doing to metaphors?
Bruce Mowbray: :))))))) @ Fc!!!!!
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth hugs FC
Bruce Mowbray: they sing until the first frost, Fc.
Aphrodite Macbain: then they are very thinly quiet
Bruce Mowbray: excellent question, Aph.
FcSeeker: (the sound when you step the ice to be broken; that's crickets ?)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh beautiful, Fc. . . another poem in the works, there!
Bruce Mowbray: Allegory: This^1 is to that^1 as this^2 is to that^2. ("abc" is to "def" as "pqr" is to "?") -- "stu"?
Actually, I thought a whole lot about Aph's question during this week. . . and I "concluded" that allegories are elaborate metaphors - - and also more precise. Therefore, computer programs can be written to do allegories --- but I'm not clear about whether they can do metaphors, yet. -- Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: If no one has anything to contribute, I can quote a story that was given today. I'd be curious if everyone gets the same "moral" from it.
Be Ewing: (crickets are small animals usually live between spring and winter)
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Agatha Macbeth: He's a poetic panda :)
Aphrodite Macbain: or a simile
Mickorod Renard: sounds good Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: OK here goes;
Aphrodite Macbain: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Guardian_Pages/Guardians'_Contributions/Calvino/Ways_of_Knowing/Metaphors_about_Metaphors
FcSeeker: ahhh
FcSeeker: lol
FcSeeker: ok
Aphrodite Macbain: oopps. wrong thing. Hold on
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) so good to see someone else does that!
Aphrodite Macbain: OK by Moon Fargis:
Aphrodite Macbain: Moon Fargis:
Once a Man lost his Loving wife. While his wife was dying, he gave her the promise that that he will not marry again.
The man remain truthful to his dead wife for a while but destiny had stored some thing else for him. He fell in love again.
He fell so deep in love that he forgot about his promise and he married again. Its natural for a man to forget promises, wedding dates, and birthday but a woman always cherishes these things.
On his wedding Night he saw his dead wife's Ghost, who complained about the broken promise. The man was surprised to see the ghost of his dead wife but now he could do nothing about it, so he kept quite. But his dead wife ghost could not accept this betrayal and She kept coming back everyday and telling word by word what transpires between the man and his new wife.
Tired by complaints and threats from the Ghost one day the man went to a Sage. The Sage said "the Ghost is very intelligent. Next time she comes, just pick one handful of grain from a sack and ask her how many grains are there in your hand."
When the Ghost came that night, the man did the same. He filled his hand with grains from a sack and asked the Ghost, "Tell me how many grains are there in my hand?" The Ghost immediately disappeared and never returned again.
Most of time what we believe and see in this world is a Projection of our mind. We can only see those things which we are already aware of. The mind projects things from the past. That Ghost was a creation of the mind and so are most of our problems. If we stop projecting things then 99% of our problems will disappear like the Ghost in this story.
Aphrodite Macbain: So ...
Aphrodite Macbain: is that the moral you got from the story?
Agatha Macbeth: I hate it when stuff vanishes before you can read it.
Aphrodite Macbain: Nobody in the group agreed.
Be Ewing: Be in the Now is what I got
Bruce Mowbray thinks, ghostly.
Aphrodite Macbain: scroll up Aggers, scroll up
Be Ewing: that often we just haunt ourselves
Agatha Macbeth: S'okay i read it from chat :p
Aphrodite Macbain: so, that's B's take.
Bruce Mowbray: modern psychology, of course, would say that the ghost itself was a projection. . . but that begs the question.
Mickorod Renard: I thought his dead wife was selfish
oO0Oo pokes Aggers while she scrolls
Aphrodite Macbain: I could not see the pint of the handful of grain
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: (owww)
Aphrodite Macbain: or point
Agatha Macbeth: Pint of grain please
Aphrodite Macbain: there's no point to this
Bruce Mowbray loves "We haunt ourselves."
Agatha Macbeth: We do
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Eliza Madrigal: yes
oO0Oo nods
Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza, what do you think?
oO0Oo: notice the haunting... that moment when..
Aphrodite Macbain: when...?
Eliza Madrigal: made me think of grounding but then, I'm practical with ghosts
oO0Oo: awareness happens
FcSeeker: brb
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: what is more important, the awareness or the moment it happens?
oO0Oo: an instant when we could be any metaphor
Aphrodite Macbain: I could think of a number
Agatha Macbeth: and double it
oO0Oo: scary opportunity... but before that judgement just the openness
FcSeeker: b
Arisia Vita: wb
oO0Oo: wb
Bruce Mowbray: If we are completely "open," then everything can "participate in/as/with us.
Agatha Macbeth: wb, FC
Aphrodite Macbain: openness = awareness?
FcSeeker: ty
Bruce Mowbray: I think that "silence" is another of those metaphors. . .
Mickorod Renard: many things, like metaphors or even parables mean things to the person at that place in their life, and at another time and place something different
oO0Oo: worth looking into
Aphrodite Macbain: my point was that there are so many ways to read a metaphor or an allegory depending on what culture you are from that I wonder about its usefulness
Bruce Mowbray: I have never known "silence" -- I can always hear my heart beating and my nervous system in operation. . . but that's a literal interpretation of silence. . .
Eliza Madrigal: the silent cave of Eden's haiku... and so agree Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: agreed Mick
Be Ewing: Bruce -- what about when you space out? veg out? zone out? ... whatever you call it
FcSeeker: the story is difficult to this panda because all else is possible to happen in RL/SL, but that the ghost would go away for such question...
Bruce Mowbray: So, "silence" as Eden uses it means something else. . . something much larger.
Be Ewing: for example, it happens when daydreaming -- one example
Aphrodite Macbain: a quiet brain?
Be Ewing: yes Aph
FcSeeker: so I might be too serious minded person to make any opinions of the story
Arisia Vita: welcome Cal
Be Ewing: a quiet brain
Bruce Mowbray ponders Be's question.
FcSeeker: Hello Cal
Aphrodite Macbain looks around for Cal.Welcome Cal
Be Ewing: that's often where issues get resolved for me -- when the jigsaw puzzle begins to complete itself
Mickorod Renard: Hi cal
Be Ewing: when solutions just appear
oO0Oo: layers of abstraction... in communication... metaphors of a kind of exponential possibility and wormhole like splash of meaning, but as with all communication... there is assumption and constant approximation... serendipity gives wonder moments
FcSeeker: but...rises something else to tell...
Bruce Mowbray: Eden wrote:
::: When it's beyond words
::: Silence is a healing cave
::: _/!\_
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cal, don't be shy
Arisia Vita: leave that to me Cal :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ha
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Calvino
oO0Oo: Hi cal
Bruce Mowbray: We've been quoting you right and left, Cal (or I have, anyway). Welcome!
Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyone
Eliza Madrigal is being fed avocado slices by sushi-making daughter, so that I won't haunt her about her room
Be Ewing: Cal -- good to see/meet you:)
Mickorod Renard: hi cal,,:)
Calvino Rabeni: :) I have tech probs today
Agatha Macbeth: He's doing a Susan today :p
oO0Oo: ::round of applause for Cal's essay::
Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
Calvino Rabeni: ty :)
Aphrodite Macbain APPLAUDS!!!
Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
Arisia Vita: claps
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth claps
Mickorod Renard: yeyyy
Aphrodite Macbain: shy guy
Agatha Macbeth: Take a bow CR
Aphrodite Macbain APPLAUDS!!!
Bruce Mowbray: Brilliantly written, Cal. THANK you!
Be Ewing: APPLAUSE!!!!
Agatha Macbeth: and don't walk into the wall :D
Calvino Rabeni BLUSHES
Aphrodite Macbain: yayy
Agatha Macbeth: (must be laggy)
Bruce Mowbray: So, I'm still concerned with this "framing" thing -- and it makes me think of last week's question about whether metaphors can be "evil" - or used for evil purposes.
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps "unethical" is a better term.
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't understand why this was a question
Agatha Macbeth: Can't everything?
Be Ewing: Bruce -- I believe they can by judges for example sometimes
Aphrodite Macbain: exactly, aggers
Be Ewing: but I don't have any literal quotes
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth smiles
Be Ewing: I am not a student of words -- excuse me
Aphrodite Macbain: I think Boxy said that but amended his statement to "useful and not useful"
Bruce Mowbray: but not unethical?
Calvino Rabeni: Nice turnout ! Thanks Bruce for all your care and setup :)
Aphrodite Macbain: many things can be unethical
Agatha Macbeth: Yay for Brucie
Bruce Mowbray: Mitt Romney: Those protestors in New York are a MOB!"
Aphrodite Macbain: why focus on metaphors?
Bruce Mowbray: incrimination through association.
Bruce Mowbray: verbal/semantic association.
Bruce Mowbray: metaphoric association.
Be Ewing: What is your definition of ethical? ... similar to Beauty is in Eye of Beholder? ... or an absolute? .. and if an absolute how do you define it?
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- How about this one:
Bruce Mowbray: Einstein said that God does not play dice with the universe.
Bruce Mowbray: Is that an ethical metaphor?
Be Ewing: I see it as a personal opinion
Aphrodite Macbain: and it is open to interpretation
Be Ewing: much, much interpretation
Mickorod Renard: and relative to a point he was making
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray has images of gambling. . . . dens of iniquity. . .
Aphrodite Macbain: we need a context for any metaphor
Calvino Rabeni: I think no opinion is purely personal, especially if it becomes current in a culture's ways of thinking, it is political
Be Ewing: /well Einstein did play around on occasions:)
oO0Oo has images of images
Bruce Mowbray: Was his "framing" ethical?
Aphrodite Macbain: neither ethical nor unethical
Bruce Mowbray: What was the point? ------- He was trying to combat quantum mechanics -- and randomness.
Aphrodite Macbain: what does it matter?
Be Ewing: all things are energy -- exactly
Aphrodite Macbain: whether it was ethical or not within the context of this discussion?
Be Ewing: so where does all this matter come into play?
Bruce Mowbray: It is an example of how metaphors can be used unethically -- I feel..... by setting up a certain framework for future knowing.
Aphrodite Macbain: what is the question?
Aphrodite Macbain: are metaphors useful? or are they always ethical?
Mickorod Renard: I think his point was, and I may be wrong, that there is an explanation for things, something that could be calculated, rather than not
Bruce Mowbray: the question is ways of knowing. . . and how metaphors contribute to that . . . and whether metaphors can be used in unethical ways. . . by framing something in a biased way.
FcSeeker: is it metaphor to create an image in mind and give it foreword ?
Aphrodite Macbain: you are talking about the Einstein's quote Mick?
Mickorod Renard: sorry yes
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Mick, a universe of ORDER -- not a random one. . . But to call in images of gambling?
Aphrodite Macbain: and my point is that we don't know what he meant- or we can't agree, so how useful is it as a metaphor?
Bruce Mowbray: OK, then we cannot call a metaphor unethical?
Be Ewing: okay ... so why do we use words at all and why do we have so many wordsmiths among us?
Aphrodite Macbain: should metaphors be universally understood one way to be useful?
Mickorod Renard: I think it is useful, cos most folk believe that gambling is reckless
Calvino Rabeni: The metaphor suggests there's something slightly dangerous about regarding the universe as random
Calvino Rabeni: unseemly
Calvino Rabeni: so it says something
Calvino Rabeni: ethical
Be Ewing: I am neutral to gambling -- like most everything it can be good and it can be bad -- but you can't have one of those without the other
Aphrodite Macbain: god is unethical?
Calvino Rabeni: randomness might be associated with nihilism or a dissipatory life-style
Calvino Rabeni: not god, but people, who believe and pattern themselves after god
Be Ewing: and if one knows the statistical odds -- can be very profitable at times:)
Calvino Rabeni: god could be considered a metaphor for the better qualities of human nature
Calvino Rabeni: as god is anthropomorphic, usually
Be Ewing: perhaps that is another discussion?
FcSeeker takes a humble bow
Eliza Madrigal waves to FcS
FcSeeker: namaste
Mickorod Renard: bye fc
oO0Oo: Fc :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Fc :))
Be Ewing: namaste
Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear! I just realized what time it is.
Arisia Vita: bye Fc
Bruce Mowbray: Shall we decide on a topic for next week?
Bruce Mowbray: Do you want to continue this one?
Be Ewing: well we touched on quite a few possibilities
Calvino Rabeni: metaphor as a "way of knowing" ?
Bruce Mowbray: Cal said this, "They are more than figures of speech or conceptual structures; more than descriptive of logic-like statements about the world. They are intrinsically gestural and participatory -- ways of being in and of the world."
-- and that is at least a full session right there!
Bruce Mowbray: I suggest we use "ways of being in the world" (through metaphor, perhaps) as a launching pad for next week's discussion.
Bruce Mowbray: open to any other suggestions, though.
Mickorod Renard: fine with me Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ty.
Bruce Mowbray waits and listens.
Agatha Macbeth listens and waits
Calvino Rabeni: sounds good to me
Aphrodite Macbain: Big topic
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we can narrow it down a bit
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for all your work and attentiveness Bruce, and nice writing (as often) Cal, and thanks Aph for the story...
Mickorod Renard: that's a good idea Aph
Agatha Macbeth nods
Be Ewing: Diverse discussion
Aphrodite Macbain: ways of being in the world: as a person, as a society? which world?
Be Ewing: Cal -- thanks for the starting point!
Bruce Mowbray: enormous topic -- and an important one, too.
Arisia Vita: a friend asks my help, so I will go, for that is my pleasure... see you all soon I hope
Arisia Vita: be well and happy
Mickorod Renard: bye Ari
Agatha Macbeth: Take care ari :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Ari!
Arisia Vita: bye for now
Be Ewing: Arisia and All -- take care and miles of smiles :)
oO0Oo: bye Ari
Aphrodite Macbain: By Ari - you helpful person!
Eliza Madrigal waves to Ari
Bruce Mowbray: I was wondering -- for the sake of the WoK group itself . . . . does anyone wish to say anything?
Aphrodite Macbain: Can we narrow the subject down before we leave and decide who's going to raise it?
Bruce Mowbray: Surfe, Aph, we can try.
Bruce Mowbray: sure*
Aphrodite Macbain: Surfe?
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth pictures Aph on a surf board
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain pulls out her surf board
Agatha Macbeth: snap
Aphrodite Macbain: crackle
Be Ewing: pop
Agatha Macbeth: It's deja vu
Bruce Mowbray: "ways of being in the world" (through metaphor, perhaps) as a launching pad for next week's discussion
Aphrodite Macbain: getting hungry
oO0Oo: metaphor as way of knowing like a surfer knows the world by the wave
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth waves to 0
Aphrodite Macbain: mind hurts
Be Ewing: :)
Calvino Rabeni: nice metaphor, Sam
Bruce Mowbray: Metaphor as a way of knowing. . .
Be Ewing: All take care :)
oO0Oo: hey Ags! :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Be!
Calvino Rabeni: bring a poem ?
Mickorod Renard: are you suggesting that we just recite metaphors Bruce?
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now Be
Aphrodite Macbain: by weight, touch and sound
Mickorod Renard: bye Ags
Calvino Rabeni: deconstruct something :)
Mickorod Renard: bye be
Agatha Macbeth: Haven't gone yet...
Bruce Mowbray: great idea, Cal -- Everyone bring a poem to illustrate the point -- or not.
Mickorod Renard: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. That sounds useful. We're all good at deconstructing
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth swats Mick
Bruce Mowbray: A poem that illustrates how metaphor offers a way of knowing....
Aphrodite Macbain: or a large metaphor we live by
Calvino Rabeni hopes we can put humpty dumpty back together again
Bruce Mowbray does too.
Calvino Rabeni: Sure Aph,
Agatha Macbeth: The yolk's on him
Mickorod Renard: ok,,so anyone's Poem?
Calvino Rabeni: the hero's journey?
Aphrodite Macbain picks up a piece of shell from under her shoe
Bruce Mowbray: Anyone's poem -- or your own -- either one.
Calvino Rabeni: waiting for a train?
Mickorod Renard: ok,,great
Mickorod Renard: :))
Calvino Rabeni: Life as a dharma merry-go-round
Calvino Rabeni: etc.
Aphrodite Macbain: karma is a metaphor
Agatha Macbeth: Metta phor
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am off to bed, Friday looms
Calvino Rabeni: what seems meaningful ... the speaker's meaning ... yours
oO0Oo: Bye Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: thanks heaps
Agatha Macbeth: Loom well Mick
Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
Bruce Mowbray: Aph, I feel that EVERY "spiritual" term, without exception, is a metaphor.
Mickorod Renard: byeeeeee
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Mick thanks for your helpful contributions
Calvino Rabeni: Row row row your boat
Bruce Mowbray: BYEEEEE!
Eliza Madrigal: Eliza Madrigal waves warmly to Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: OK, then. I'm a bit vague about how this chat gets posted. . . Shall I do that?
Calvino Rabeni: Please do, Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: I don't have it
Bruce Mowbray: This is a Kira venue, so I'm not clear on the frames.
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not sure if it is automatically recorded. Is it Eliza? Cal?
Bruce Mowbray: I have it on my hard drive.
Calvino Rabeni: frames/
Aphrodite Macbain: Frames of seeing
Bruce Mowbray: frames, indeed!
Calvino Rabeni: no, you take it from your computer chat log
Eliza Madrigal: it isn't automatically recorded, no
Calvino Rabeni: and make a new page on the wiki
Agatha Macbeth: We need an autologger here...
Calvino Rabeni: and paste it in
Eliza Madrigal: and it seems fine to post to the discussions, nods
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I've got it on computer. so I will post it.
Calvino Rabeni: actually Bruce, I like to take off the timestamps too
Calvino Rabeni: if they are there
Bruce Mowbray: Did anyone else wish to say anything about WoK?
Eliza Madrigal: should there be a desire to really 'restart' the workshop, then it is a good idea to talk to Maxine
Calvino Rabeni: if you want me to do it, send me the file
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce. Yes, they are a nuisance
Eliza Madrigal: and attend a Kira team meeting
Bruce Mowbray: I will delete the timestamps, np.
Calvino Rabeni: ty much Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: I know nothing of Kira team meetings, sry.
Agatha Macbeth: Better to turn em off beforehand
oO0Oo: shout out to Stim and gaya and anyone else who haunts the ways of knowing !
Eliza Madrigal: and at the meeting one would propose and take initiative...
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: How is Gaya?
Calvino Rabeni: Exempt from public haunt
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: WHERE is Gaya?
Eliza Madrigal: she is taking classes, as I understand
Bruce Mowbray loves "exempt from public haunt" -- ME TOO!
Agatha Macbeth: Bless her
Aphrodite Macbain: Congratulations Bruce. I feel, like last time, that we haven't adequately dealt with the topic. Cal has put a lot of thought into his essay and I don't think everyone totally understood what was happening. I wonder if we could revisit the subject
Aphrodite Macbain: next week
Bruce Mowbray: definitely, Aph -- and I agree with you entirely.
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps focusing on something
Eliza Madrigal: I'll be reading on the wiki mostly, but thanks and I'm glad i made it here today
Aphrodite Macbain: What do you think, everyone?
Bruce Mowbray: BRING that with you, please.
Aphrodite Macbain: (who's left)
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS for joining in, Eliza!
Aphrodite Macbain: It needs some preparatory work Bruce. and an agreement by everyone
Agatha Macbeth: Thx Liz, take care
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: wish you the best, and it would be a good idea to talk to Maxine re the official things :)
Agatha Macbeth: (you really do need wings btw)
Bruce Mowbray remembers the Little Red Hen....
Eliza Madrigal: she is ever with me :)
Bruce Mowbray: "Very well, then, I shall do it myself." And she did!
Agatha Macbeth: I remember the little red rooster
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: cluck cluck
oO0Oo: leading by example as metaphor for fruition
Bruce Mowbray: Pila! How ARE you!!!????
Bruce Mowbray: (silent one).
Aphrodite Macbain: and pickiness
Agatha Macbeth: Silence is golden
Eliza Madrigal: bye everyone :) waves
Pila Mulligan: hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Liz!
oO0Oo: wings to all... be well
Agatha Macbeth: Agatha Macbeth waves
Agatha Macbeth: I'll be away the noo
Bruce Mowbray: I was hoping you could enlighten us about the metaphorical I Ching -- or not so metaphorical.
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain flaps hers
Agatha Macbeth: tc
oO0Oo: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bruce Mowbray: tc, aggers!
Bruce Mowbray hopes that we've breathed a bit of life back into WoK today.
Bruce Mowbray: Time for moi to move along. Carry on, good people!
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain takes a deep breath
Pila Mulligan: bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! everyone.
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Bye!
Bruce Mowbray: yw! THANK YOU, Aph!