01.06.2011 - Beauty

Avy Runner: hi everyone :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Happy New Year those I haven't seen a while :)
Eliza Madrigal: wow, and Hi Tim! Ltns
Botty Absent: Hi Avy
Timbo Quan: yes has been a while :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello oO0Oo :) Just to let you know we record and post chatlogs online http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
Avy Runner: next attempt..... :)
oO0Oo Resident: ty
Calvino Rabeni: There's a space on the couch here, Avy :)
Eliza Madrigal: need tiny chairs....
Avy Runner: thanks, but just managed to get up here :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to be back in Wok :)
Avy Runner: in ony two attempts
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: And we've finished up our last emphasis I think... for the time being anyway....
Eliza Madrigal: so we're here anew :)
Bruce Mowbray: Are we here to discuss "Beauty"?
Eliza Madrigal: that was my next question! Are we, Cal? :)
Gaya Ethaniel: hehe
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: Hi oOOOo, we're just beginning now... lots of travel issues

Calvino Rabeni: I'm not prepared in that direction with anything - but we could Ad Lib
Eliza Madrigal: yikes
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
oO0Oo Resident: Hi, yes grey sludge
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe it would be good to look at the group in a broader sense
Calvino Rabeni: as we're returning from holiday and a break
Calvino Rabeni: what is different, how were things
Calvino Rabeni: does absence give perspective
Calvino Rabeni: any fresh ideas
Calvino Rabeni: etc
Calvino Rabeni: taking stock is something I like to do around transition times
Eliza Madrigal: my new year 'fresh' idea seems to be getting back to basics...
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: direct exploration
Eliza Madrigal: and revisiting some topics
Calvino Rabeni: and since we're some of us part of PaB, there are influences from that source also
Eliza Madrigal: maybe in different ways... not sure, listening...
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Avy Runner: hi Zen :)
Zen Arado: Hi All :)
Calvino Rabeni: My new "influences" are so new, I don't know what to label them
oO0Oo Resident: hey Zen
Calvino Rabeni: that is interesting in itself
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yesterday in the homework meeting we talked about daily practice itself... and ended on a 'you are the koan' note...
Calvino Rabeni: how one can "know" but not be able to label, and to "move" with something like that
Avy Runner looks at Cal in interest
Calvino Rabeni: when it's so new, it's not easy to put in a nice conceptual box
Avy Runner: i guess it will enroll itself in time
Calvino Rabeni: it takes a light touch
Calvino Rabeni: or rather I think, a field awareness
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Calvino Rabeni: one can't grasp it tightly
Avy Runner nods
Calvino Rabeni: The poet Robert Graves wrote that a dream being born is like a bird, if you grasp, it will flee, but if you wait until it settles on your hand, you may then take it
Calvino Rabeni: so there's a period of knowing without grasping after it
Calvino Rabeni: no quick moves :)
Calvino Rabeni: thinking in the cloud, as it were
Calvino Rabeni: for me transitions have this flavor
Calvino Rabeni: compared to being on an established "groove"
Calvino Rabeni: the directions can be changed a little
Gaya Ethaniel: You mean it provides opportunities for things to settle, intergrate etc?
Calvino Rabeni: like the train comes into a station
Calvino Rabeni: when thing settle and integrate, they free up attention for the new to enter
Avy Runner nods again
Calvino Rabeni: and how do the new things appear, once that settling has happened ?
Zen Arado: don't know
Calvino Rabeni: I think the sense of beauty may be a part of that ... an aesthetic sense of overall quality
Zen Arado: might be unanalysable
Calvino Rabeni: or threat, obviously
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: we function without and beyond analysis
Zen Arado: just is
Zen Arado: like explaining the taste of something
Calvino Rabeni: it may be more than just is, though, it may be active and protean, or wanting to do something ...l just don't know what
Gaya Ethaniel: You're an artist Zen ... what does beauty mean to you?
Eliza Madrigal: btw, Kore forgive me for not saying hello, wasn't sure if you were 'here' with us before :)
Zen Arado: suck it and see
Calvino Rabeni: forward attention is to focus on the thing itself, however amorphous
Avy Runner: to me it sounds like an activity yes
Avy Runner: like dropping is something you need to 'do'
Calvino Rabeni: In my experience it's necessary to open a space large enough to contain it
Zen Arado: as an artist I like some patterns and colours and things
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry but I'm lost Cal ...
Zen Arado: but who could say why? though art critics try to
Zen Arado: we like symmetry of course
Gaya Ethaniel: true
Zen Arado: sorry double thread
Calvino Rabeni: I'm kind of talking about knowing in the large, outside of a fixed concept .. thinking at the edge or beyond ...which is how things "appear" during transition times, when new knowledge enters
Zen Arado: humans like cetain proportions
Bruce Mowbray: We seem to prefer balance - whether symmetrical or a-symmetrical.
Zen Arado: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: yes
Zen Arado: but we also like excitment
Zen Arado: something novel
Calvino Rabeni: And the reason I brought that up is because during transitions it feels like that's part of the character of what's being offered
Bruce Mowbray: excitment?
Calvino Rabeni: excitement - threat or beauty?
Zen Arado: oh yes - art can be stirring don't you think?
Eliza Madrigal: re symmetry, came across something beautiful Stevenaia said in a session a month or so ago...

stevenaia Michinaga: they say some geometries remind the mind of the safe african savannah, baldes of grass, fractals everywhere, no place for harm to hide
Calvino Rabeni: excitement is a mixed experience
Zen Arado: yes nice Eliza
Calvino Rabeni: a beauty may have a vulnerability, even a hidden dagger
Zen Arado: we like pictures of lakes and fields
Eliza Madrigal: have gone back to read it several times for its quality...
Zen Arado: humans feel safe near water
Eliza Madrigal: even the way of his phrasing
Avy Runner: if you twith the known a bit, you start to feel excitement
Avy Runner: just beside the harmony
Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed art can be stirring :)
Zen Arado: maybe things in paintings remind us of our past in the ungle
Zen Arado: dappled light
Zen Arado: jungle *
Zen Arado: or was it savannah plains?
Eliza Madrigal: flowing out of a safe and pleasant space/field... one that is accomodating...
Eliza Madrigal: (guess still pondering the meditative pab session earlier too)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: to me the question is, when I approach that "new" experience, what is it in me, that leads to it appearing with deeper or additional significance as beauty, threat, excitement, etc.
Zen Arado: popular taste is for scenes around where they live
Calvino Rabeni: What can an artist do, when approaching the art of others?
Zen Arado: why does red represent danger?
Calvino Rabeni: to open up to "getting" it?
Zen Arado: try to be open to new things I think Cal
Zen Arado: but that is the same for everyone
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but what's the internal way one can organize oneself to foster that?
Zen Arado: artists might be more critical
Zen Arado: notice feelings as you look at the work
Zen Arado: maybe you could analyse those
Eliza Madrigal: there is no doubt that humans are sort of nourished by beauty... but perhaps what we think of as beauty ie the packaged sort.... and chasing after that... fails us... til we are exhausted then there's room
Eliza Madrigal: for surprise
Calvino Rabeni: The special status of the amateur is important ... to have beginners mind and not fall into the well-defined patterns of thinking of an expert
Avy Runner: even if it is hard
Avy Runner: I guess not getting out of the way of things that appear
Zen Arado: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Nice, Eliza
Zen Arado: some art critics can be pompous I think
Avy Runner: yes, very nice
Zen Arado: our taste is influenced by others
Zen Arado: what is 'in'
Gaya Ethaniel: Also by exposures as well ...
Zen Arado: like fashion
Calvino Rabeni: Beginner, expert, master, in a way the path of development cycles around to a new simplicity and innocene
Zen Arado: yes....cycles
Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, can you say more about exposures?
Zen Arado: technology is changing art
Zen Arado: yes Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... something that may come across as jarring at the first encounter can grow on you ... also exposures to other things can expand our minds.
Zen Arado: yes good point
Zen Arado: our taste is educated
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes... see that... acclimated and refined...
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure some thought Beethoven babaric in his time :P
Zen Arado: by exposing ourselves to things we think we don't like
Eliza Madrigal: which in some cases has a lot to do with peeling away....
Gaya Ethaniel: I do think sometimes though he's a bit over the top ...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: it takes time for assimilation too
Zen Arado: by the public
Gaya Ethaniel: olives ... :P
Zen Arado: time for familiarity to take away strangeness
Calvino Rabeni: To enjoy Beethoven for me is to handle the parts of me that are tight around the great suffering and associated beauty that he experienced in his life
Bruce Mowbray: does a sense of beauty require familiarity, then?
Zen Arado: think so Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: hm.... there can be flash beauty
Calvino Rabeni: I think beauty requires a nice balance of safety and the uncanny together
Bruce Mowbray: Is that 'beauty" of "comfort"?
Zen Arado: the artists centuries ago were breaking new ground at the time
Bruce Mowbray: or comfort, sry.
Calvino Rabeni: Comfort alone doesn't persist as beauty
Avy Runner: I think comfort :)
Calvino Rabeni: as in the expression "familiarity breeds contempt"
Zen Arado: think of all the artists who weren't appreciated in their lifetimes
Avy Runner: when there is no comfort, we feel beauty as something fearfull I think....
Zen Arado: Van Gogh for instance
Calvino Rabeni: The ambiguity of the Mona Lisa is part of its beauty ... we're not quite sure or completely comfortable with what that smile means
Zen Arado: yes agree Cal
Calvino Rabeni: on the other hand I don't find Dali and the melting clocks beautiful
Zen Arado: but maybe not too much strangeness
Calvino Rabeni: surrealism is a challenge
Zen Arado: takes a society a while to accept
Calvino Rabeni: maybe I'm not sophisticated enough
Zen Arado: or you just don't like surrealism
Calvino Rabeni: But Cubism works :) although I heard the Avignon painting was very challenging to people
Zen Arado: lots don't
Eliza Madrigal: maybe the smile means many things and we can't handle the uncomfortableness of being with layers of complexity that we can't pin down
Avy Runner: but there isn't real discomfort either
Calvino Rabeni: I wouldn't say, Zen, that I have a "just don't like" type experience without a lot of deeper ramificatins
Avy Runner: it is just beside the harmony
Bruce Mowbray: But beauty, for me, is always somehow comforting.
Eliza Madrigal: well the discomfort is part of what keeps one looking...
Avy Runner: making us excited
Calvino Rabeni: @Bruce, for me I'd use "reassuring" instead of "comforting", which is a slightly different experience
Eliza Madrigal: or curiosity... or hm...
Zen Arado: a lot of art appreciation is amnufactured I thnk
Zen Arado: 'the Emperor's new clothes'
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray ponders "reassuring."
Gaya Ethaniel: Getting the audience curious is important in engaging them.
Calvino Rabeni: What's in "reassuring"?
Calvino Rabeni: Some might be reassured by Guernica
Zen Arado: maybe most of our artistic taste is manufactured
Calvino Rabeni: Horrific as it is
Gaya Ethaniel: Whether by discomfort or unpredictability ...
Botty Absent: Beauty is such a personal thing within a particular culture that we live
Avy Runner pondering about reassurance
Zen Arado: but Picasso had a certain purpose in painting Guernica
Zen Arado: it wasn't about beauty ?
Gaya Ethaniel pokes 'reassurance' ...
Eliza Madrigal: Earlier today I heard Pink Floyd's 'wish you were here' and heard it for the first time as a meditative contemplation... 'wish you were *here* instead of in a loop"... that's real art to me... comforting because it seemed to open up
Eliza Madrigal: not in a graspable way...
Zen Arado: you have good taste Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: so yes would agree Botty
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes that's why I hang out with you guys Zen
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Zen Arado: of course :)
Zen Arado: and we have good taste too :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Avy Runner: nice Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: neat topic... we are approaching the end of the session though...
Calvino Rabeni: Reassurance is deeply contextual, touching unique personal needs and circumstances as well as shared human depths
Zen Arado: I don't like Damien Hurst stuff
oO0Oo Resident: that's beautiful
Zen Arado: but maybe I will one day
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Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: No but I like his diamond skull, overpriced yes but a good piece of work.
Zen Arado: yes nice Cal
oO0Oo Resident ducks out with warm heart
Zen Arado: bye Sam
Eliza Madrigal: Glad to have you here Ooo
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
Eliza Madrigal: I wonder might we like to have some... drumroll... homework? :)
Calvino Rabeni waves
Avy Runner: bye :)
Gaya Ethaniel: On beauty?
Botty Absent: I need to leave too, thank you
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
Botty Absent is Offline
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Botty thanks for coming!
Zen Arado: bye Botty
Eliza Madrigal: beauty... sure... and hm... odd angle what about beauty and a basic topic like co-dependent arising?
Eliza Madrigal: revisiting it....

Calvino Rabeni: I want to suggest, about the "direct exploration" aspect of the homework ...
Eliza Madrigal: they seem related
Calvino Rabeni: to find the actual thing and catch it in the act
Eliza Madrigal: beauty as an expression of emptiness
Eliza Madrigal: snapshots....
Eliza Madrigal: snapshot moments...not picture necessarily
Zen Arado: could you elaborate a bit more Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: How about "beauty as an expression of ... what is going on there exactly" ?
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Calvino Rabeni: I mean not predefining
Eliza Madrigal: same thing
Eliza Madrigal: =P~
Zen Arado: experiencing?
Calvino Rabeni: like maybe beauty doesn't appear in relation to emptiness
Calvino Rabeni: it appears as something real to you but different than that predefined ide3a
Avy Runner: oh I know the right snapshot......
Zen Arado: our direct experience of beauty?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: catching it in the act
Eliza Madrigal: sounds good
Bruce Mowbray: agrees.
Calvino Rabeni: as a happening thing in present time, with depths of experience
Zen Arado: ok
Calvino Rabeni: analysis to follow
Bruce Mowbray: "direct experience of beauty"
Calvino Rabeni: news at 10
Eliza Madrigal: Nice...
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice we have a homework topic :)
Eliza Madrigal: OK will post as such
Bruce Mowbray: thanks, Eliza.
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks everyone, nice seeing you again :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Eliza :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Zen Arado: thanks everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Gaya, and nice to see everyone indeed :)
Avy Runner: eh...... where can I post it and do I need a password?
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you all, and thanks Cal
Zen Arado: nice to see you all back
Gaya Ethaniel: http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
Avy Runner: thanks Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: IM me your email addess Avy?
Zen Arado: and thanks Cal for presentation
Gaya Ethaniel: I will set up an account for you.