2010.08.19 - Dhyana Paramita/Samadhi II

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
Eliza Madrigal: I apologize but I need to ask that someone else take the log tday
Gaya Ethaniel: I can do it, no worries :)
Eliza Madrigal: I am using emerald because I had issues signing on...
Eliza Madrigal: and now have no idea what is where, though it *looks* like viewer 1
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you so much
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful dream session btw
Gaya Ethaniel: It was lovely :) Shame you couldn't make it.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, but it was wonderful to read... felt like I was there
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: slow signing on today eh
Eliza Madrigal: brb
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: k
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
Dao Yheng: Hi Gaya :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
Eliza Madrigal: btw, calvino will be traveling til sept 1, but after that will come join us again, etc
Gaya Ethaniel: I see, thanks for letting us know.
Dao Yheng: Oh great -- he's set to do presentations too?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Mitsu Ishii: hi folks
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu, Philosopher Zen
Dao Yheng: Hi Zen!
Zen Arado: Hi all
Dao Yheng: Eliza was mentioning that Calvino will be back and presenting one of his topics next week (hope I got that right)
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes seems right :)
Dao Yheng: I enjoyed the reports this week --
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful reports.. was just catching up on Gaya's
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes thanks for the reports :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I'm always late ... :P
Eliza Madrigal: :) no worries :)
Dao Yheng: it was a great story -- worth the wait!
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I like the story very much ... :)
Eliza Madrigal: one of those stories one puzzles around in their mind... seems 'out of time' and yet there is a core
Dao Yheng: How do you understand the story gaya? I'm sure there are many meanings, would be interested to hear what you were drawn to
Eliza Madrigal nods and listens
Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... patience and perseverance ... I remember Stim mentioning eons not 12 years ... and compassion, how important it is to cultivate this.
Dao Yheng: back to the cave!
Eliza Madrigal: eons=instantly
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I like the guy, a little feisty he must have been, to complain not to be bawled over when Maitreya appeared :P
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Dao Yheng: :))
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes can be seen as instantaneous as well ... one has to ask Stim directly.
Dao Yheng: it's funny what we see "reality" in -- I remember at one of my first retreats, it was a hot pink button down shirt someone was wearing
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alfred!
Dao Yheng: for this guy, it was worms and doggies :)
Alfred Kelberry: oi :)
Zen Arado: Hi Alfred
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Alfred :)
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Eliza Madrigal: my goodness Dao... haha
Gaya Ethaniel: wwwaaahhh so funny Dao!
Eliza Madrigal: Say more about the pink shirt?
Dao Yheng: it was just really really pink!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: everyone dresses in black at zen retreats
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Dao Yheng: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm really struck by your saying this because I dreamed of 'magenta' the other night :)
Dao Yheng: oh nice!
Alfred Kelberry: zen, really?
Eliza Madrigal: and I thought "What a funny thing to dream about... and so much lucidity, but it doesn't mean anything..."
Zen Arado: black or dark anyway
Eliza Madrigal: serious zennies :)
Gaya Ethaniel: You can be a trail blazer then at the next retreat Zen, wearing a hot pink.
Alfred Kelberry: i guess to exclude distraction of color?
Eliza Madrigal: hahahah Gaya
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: maybe - lots wear black robes too
Dao Yheng: zennies are probably hot pink on the inside :)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: I don't like robes
Gaya Ethaniel: I think different colours have different qualities/energies to them. I realised that when I tried a bit of visualisation on different colours.
Zen Arado: we are ALL pink on inside
Alfred Kelberry: never knew, interesting
Eliza Madrigal: hahhahah
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Eliza Madrigal: oh this session is doomed
Eliza Madrigal giggling
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Mitsu Ishii: so I wonder if we want to talk more explicitly about the idea of samadhi
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I'd like to listen to that.
Dao Yheng: yes, the color of a dream does carry some kind of message or quality, I think
Zen Arado: somebody said something about cultivating compassion?
Alfred Kelberry: samadhi?
Eliza Madrigal: 'what color is samadhi?"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Mitsu Ishii: samadhi is the purported topic of today's session and last week's homework, Alfred :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: think it's more about removing the mental obstructions that prevent it as in the story
Mitsu Ishii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi
Gaya Ethaniel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi_(Buddhism)
Eliza Madrigal: well aren't those both the same zen?
Alfred Kelberry: ah, it's like meditation
Zen Arado: samadhi is transparent and clear I think
Mitsu Ishii: I think there's an interesting question here about different ways one can relate to meditation
Eliza Madrigal: what is in the way... is in the way of natural compassion perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen
Zen Arado: no - cultivating is more like forcing it because you think you should be compassionate I think
Eliza Madrigal: cultivating can be not turning away from weeds
Zen Arado: depends what you mean by cultivating though
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Mitsu more you'd like to say on different ways?
Zen Arado: when I was a christian is was always trying to improve myself
Mitsu Ishii: what I'd like to raise is the subject of samadhi itself, which is often seen as a state
Mitsu Ishii: but in Buddhism of course samadhi is not seen as a goal, but more just a description of a type of awareness that can arise from meditation
Eliza Madrigal: I was considering it as sustained awareness
Eliza Madrigal: that one doesn't work up...
Zen Arado: an absence of the usual mind chatter ?
Eliza Madrigal: penetrating
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I wonder ... when/why is it important to understand what something like samadhi is?
Zen Arado: agree Gaya
Dao Yheng: samadhi seems to be a word that can be used for a few different things
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aphrodite :)
Zen Arado: we can spend too much time trying to achieve it
Zen Arado: Hi Aphrodite
Alfred Kelberry: would satori be the ultimate form of samadhi?
Eliza Madrigal: I like to refer to the wiki and such, but for this kind of thing I prefer to stop and ask if I have a sense ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Will IM Aphrodite with intro :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aphrodite :)
Mitsu Ishii: so it can become a problematic point to try to struggle with whether or not one has attained what level of samadhi
Aphrodite Macbain: please don't let me interrupt
Dao Yheng: For example, I would agree that "The central features of a major internal absorption include..." describes a state
Mitsu Ishii: hi Aphrodite
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Dao
Dao Yheng: (not at all A!)
Eliza Madrigal: a guide to refer to can often give great comfort...
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Dao
Dao Yheng: it could be a very useful state at some point in your practice
Zen Arado: please interrupt Aphro !
Eliza Madrigal: a list, etc
Mitsu Ishii: there's another approach which I find useful, though some people laugh at me when I describe it
Dao Yheng: but not necessary at other points too
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) I'll have to do my homework first
Eliza Madrigal: satori I think is more a temporary clarity...?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it could be useful but one cannot recognise in one's practice?
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i think it's a culmination
Eliza Madrigal: my understand it as similar to 'noticing' that one's mind is quiet
Gaya Ethaniel: Shouldn't it be something that has to be 'confirmed' through communication with a teacher or someone experienced?
Zen Arado: we have to experience these things or we know nothing about them maybe
Eliza Madrigal: like "Hm, didn't notice the chatter wasn't happening"
Eliza Madrigal: Say more MItsu?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, except the Buddha obviously ... ^^;;;
Zen Arado: even that confirmation could be suspect
Mitsu Ishii: At one retreat I used the phrase "pixel of awareness"
Mitsu Ishii: is that the phrase I used Dao? I think it was
Dao Yheng: probably!
Zen Arado: experiences can be deceptive too.....
Eliza Madrigal: ? listening...
Mitsu Ishii: well basically I think much if the time people attempt to attain some sort of total quietude or total absorbed awareness/samadhi
Mitsu Ishii: but my approach is different. although I certainly experience that quite often, especially when practicing at retreat
Zen Arado: but that's a goal
Mitsu Ishii: I use an alternative approach
Zen Arado: yes?
Mitsu Ishii: The alternative is to have a kind of "double exposure" awareness
Mitsu Ishii: another way I describe it is to maintain even a pixel of samadhi
Mitsu Ishii: a pixel of awareness
Mitsu Ishii: that is to say
Mitsu Ishii: rather than focusing on trying to calm the mind or anything of that sort
Zen Arado: why not 'just sit' and allow whatever happens to happen?
Mitsu Ishii: instead I try to maintain, even in the midst of the most un-calm mind
Mitsu Ishii: the very slightest bit of that clear awareness, somewhere, even if it is far in the background.
Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh... a taste....?
Mitsu Ishii: or just off to the side
Gaya Ethaniel: Well samadhi is a 'result' not a method or an instruction ...
Mitsu Ishii: a tiny fragment of it, a hole or tear in the fabric of what appears to be my samsaric picture of the world and thoughts and so on
Alfred Kelberry: mitsu, you talk about total quietude and absorption. it sounds a lot like being asleep :)
Zen Arado: agree Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: So letting things to arise is fine ... of course.
Zen Arado: aren't we so eager to achieve results though :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Using samadhi as a reminder? That sounds interesting :)
Eliza Madrigal: very nice Mitsu, thanks for sharing that
Zen Arado: take out spiritual temperature continually
Zen Arado: yes thanks Mitsu
Gaya Ethaniel: It actually makes sense ... turning to the silence.
Gaya Ethaniel: It's always there.
Mitsu Ishii: I find this strategy or stance is a kind of intermediate between "try to attain samadhi!" and "well I'm not going to make any effort whatsoever in any direction at all"
Eliza Madrigal: A friend told me a few years ago, about an 'experience'... Well, don't get distracted by it but it is okay to go back to the taste of it and let it expand...
Mitsu Ishii: I do make a very, very slight effort, and that effort is to just try to keep the more expansive awareness there even out of the corner of my eye.
Mitsu Ishii: I have found that level of effort is not particularly problematic.
Zen Arado: so hard to put this into words....
Eliza Madrigal: always there, yes @ Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Well it's not something we can manufacture anyway.
Mitsu Ishii: ultimately the point is to find that EVERY state of mind is already stopped, even while it is going. Stim likes to emphasize that point often.
Zen Arado: I am so sceptical of experiences that I probably refuse to acknowledge them
Eliza Madrigal: indeed... we can cultivate conditions in which it may be allowed/invited though
Gaya Ethaniel: Well perhaps that's what Mitsu meant by that level of effort and turning/seeing by me ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Or take out and put on a hot pink shirt as a last resort ...
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Dao Yheng: :)
Dao Yheng: better than doggie worms :)
Gaya Ethaniel: rofl
Eliza Madrigal: sounds like ice cream or lip gloss... hot pink samadhi
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Dao Yheng: Zen, can you say more about your scepticism around experiences?
Zen Arado: would be good to wear something like that to make sure we aren't hung up on clothing colour
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: You can start in SL Zen :P
Eliza Madrigal: "be unpredictable"
Gaya Ethaniel: And then in a RL Zen retreat ... :)
Zen Arado: I often see flowers and such growing out of a radiator in front of me at retreats
Zen Arado: but they are only 'makyo' I'm told
Gaya Ethaniel: Makyo?
Zen Arado: the mind manufactures these things when bored
Zen Arado: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makyo
Dao Yheng: like seeing faces and dragons in the knotted pine panelling?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mitsu Ishii: Zen teachers tend to dismiss visions as makyo, though Tibetans sometimes think there is a significance and can play with them.
Zen Arado: yes that's it too
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... distortions ...
Mitsu Ishii: We talked to a guy who studied Tibetan Buddhism and he described one encounter he had with a Tibetan
Mitsu Ishii: he had been doing Zen and was having visions and the Zen teacher said he couldn't help with those but perhaps a Tibetan could
Zen Arado: interesting...
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: so he went to a Tibetan, and sat with the Tibetan lama, and they started to talk a bit
Mitsu Ishii: the Tibetan lama at one point said "You may see things" and swept his robed arm across in the dark
Mitsu Ishii: and in the space his arm swept, our friend saw all these colorful apparitions
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Is he also an artist I wonder.
Zen Arado: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Zen really has learnt to see things well.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Dao Yheng: indeed
Zen Arado: it's worse at retreats because I am half asleep sometimes
Zen Arado: have kind of waking dreams
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds like what an artist's mind would do naturally ... dreaming like visualisation.
Dao Yheng: mm, I have had that experience too
Eliza Madrigal: sallies
Gaya Ethaniel: ack Mitsu poofed ...
Dao Yheng: I think waking mind is makyo too, though
Eliza Madrigal: :)))))
Zen Arado: ah yes Dao
Gaya Ethaniel: That's what the ordinary mind does isnt it?
Zen Arado: it's all mind construction
Gaya Ethaniel: yay wb Mitsu!
Mitsu Ishii: sorry crashed
Zen Arado: you have very detailed colourful dreams I remember Gaya
Dao Yheng: I think that's why Pema's approach can be so freeing -- appearance as our friend instead of just a liar
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: indeed.. so it is the nature of insight to notice one is not awake?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods Dao
Gaya Ethaniel: I have good visual/spatial memory that's all.
Eliza Madrigal gets shivers hearing gaya's dream descriptions at times
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: eh?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: little details... they feel tangible
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: So what happened to that man who went Tibetan Mitsu?
Zen Arado: my dreams are low rez and monochrome I think :)
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Gaya Ethaniel: Watch more TV Zen :P
Zen Arado: need HD dream mind installed
Mitsu Ishii: oh, well, he ended up studying with him
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Mitsu Ishii: eventually he went to Nepal
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
Mitsu Ishii: and got a geshe degree
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: dreams can be like the pixel too..
Eliza Madrigal: noticing little things.. not trying to remember everything, just what winks...
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: guess it isn't such a good idea to be doing that in the traffic though... find myself way less enlightened there
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Just going back when is samadhi useful and when it isn't Dao? Can you say a bit more on that?
Dao Yheng: oh, I meant specifically in regards to certain meditative states
Gaya Ethaniel listens.
Dao Yheng: like sitting up straight or slouching -- I've definitely had the feeling of "lucidity" you could say while slouching
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Dao Yheng: but actually, sitting up straight, getting my energy in line, that seems more dependable
Gaya Ethaniel: You mean lucidity of 'ouch!'?
Zen Arado: better to sit straight if you sit all day
Dao Yheng: just full blown lucidity -- no ouch
Gaya Ethaniel: oh
Gaya Ethaniel: You must have really really slouched, no half-baked :P
Dao Yheng: :)
Zen Arado: I am going to a 5 day zen retreat next week
Dao Yheng: oh great!
Zen Arado: going to work on concentration
Gaya Ethaniel: Hope you enjoy it Zen :)
Dao Yheng: local, or travelling?
Eliza Madrigal: nice, Zen
Gaya Ethaniel: I've cancelled mine ...
Zen Arado: about 60 miles away
Eliza Madrigal: how do you feel about that Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: The teacher got a bit too demanding ... well feel relieved :P
Zen Arado: http://www.servites-benburb.com/
Dao Yheng: what an interesting name!
Zen Arado: where was it Gaya?
Eliza Madrigal: :) Glad then Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Looks pretty :)
Gaya Ethaniel: It's a small private one Zen.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: there'll be over 50 at this one
Gaya Ethaniel: wow
Mitsu Ishii: so we're leading up to the end of the session, shall we go on to the next paramita for next week?
Eliza Madrigal: large group, wow
Gaya Ethaniel: Wisdom isn't it?
Zen Arado: prajna
Mitsu Ishii: prajna paramita
Gaya Ethaniel: I still sometimes say pranna ^^;;;
Gaya Ethaniel: Pali way ...
Mitsu Ishii: shall we make the heart sutra the homework?
Gaya Ethaniel: The short one?
Eliza Madrigal: :) Chi paramita Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oooh great idea Mitsu
Zen Arado: I heard a talk on it 3 weeks ago
Dao Yheng: sounds great!
Zen Arado: we were learning to chant it too
Zen Arado: in English
Gaya Ethaniel: I chant it in Korean :)
Zen Arado: I like it in Japanese
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mitsu Ishii: prajna paramita for next week's topic
Mitsu Ishii: okay heart sutra prajnaparamita sutra for homework
Eliza Madrigal: I like it in hot pink...
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Zen Arado: :)
Dao Yheng: but everyone says gate gate -- I like that :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: you're wicked Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: (sorry)
Eliza Madrigal: hehehhe
Gaya Ethaniel: She's in that mood today more so than other days :P
Dao Yheng: she cackles!
Eliza Madrigal: hahahha yes it has been a week... kind of like Dao's I think...
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you. See you next week [Zen see you the week after].
Eliza Madrigal: according to report :)
Dao Yheng: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: sorry to miss heart sutra
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone, and Gaya for posting the log. I'll figure things out...
Zen Arado: pink heart too
Dao Yheng: It's funny though, today the sun was out and I felt great!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mitsu Ishii: I like hot pink chanting too.
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Mitsu Ishii: well we might cover it two weeks in a row I suspect
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that's true Zen... maybe we'll come back..loop around
Gaya Ethaniel: wwahhh
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we can do that.
Eliza Madrigal: Glad to hear that Dao :)
Zen Arado: will try to write something anyway - don't go until Wednesday
Eliza Madrigal: the clouds lift
Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, great
Dao Yheng: have a great retreat Zen -- tell us about it when you get back
Mitsu Ishii: bye everyone
Zen Arado: thanks to everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, enjoy it Zen :)
Zen Arado: bye
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye everyone, thanks
Gaya Ethaniel waves.
Dao Yheng: bye all, thanks!