2009.11.26 - Workshop 35

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Is D afk again?
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
Scathach Rhiadra: and Pila:)
Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya, Scath and Stim
Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Scathach, D, Pila
Scathach Rhiadra: how are you today?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
Stim Morane: Busy, as usual.
Stim Morane: Are you all well?
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes thank you :)
Scathach Rhiadra: yes ty:)
Yakuzza Lethecus: good evening everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza
Pila Mulligan: hi Yak
Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
Stim Morane: Hi Mick, Yakuzza
Mickorod Renard: yeaaaaaaa..Pila
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello mick, Zon
Mickorod Renard: yeaaaaa,Stim
Zon Quar: hi all
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zon :)
Vendy Walpole: Hello
Mickorod Renard: Hi Scath< Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Vendy :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi D
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Vendy
Gaya Ethaniel: D is afk I think
Pila Mulligan: hi Zon, Vendy
Stim Morane: Hi Zon, Vendy
Vendy Walpole: Hi
Pila Mulligan: wasn't D in the same position last week? wonder if it is continuous
Gaya Ethaniel: He always sits there even when not afk :)
Mickorod Renard: wow Stim,,you must let me have the recipe for the hair tonic
Pila Mulligan: ahh, home for him
Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tim :)
Stim Morane: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tim:)
Timbo Quan: Hello
Pila Mulligan: hi Timbo
Stim Morane: Hi Timbo
Gaya Ethaniel: I think Eliza is travelling ... probably can't get online.
Stim Morane: OK
Pila Mulligan: Thanksgiving in the US today
Stim Morane: That's too bad, I was looking forward to hearing her discuss her experience in Best Buy.
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Happy Thanksgiving :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Vendy Walpole: Happy from me too
Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed I was too.
Stim Morane: So ... I guess we should start. We probably won't have a full house today, given the US holiday.
Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Adams :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Adams
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Timbo Quan: Hello Adams
Vendy Walpole: Hi Adams
Stim Morane: I think last time I was mumbling something about aliveness ... and also about "limits". The latter was basically a reference to natural patterns, which admit of considerable variation but still involve comfort zones associated with natural function.
Stim Morane: Do any of you have any experience to report re "aliveness"?
Mickorod Renard: I do recall it many years ago
Pila Mulligan: :)
Stim Morane: yes, I know the feeling, Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... no ... :(
Stim Morane: that's why I bring it up
Stim Morane: no Gaya?
Stim Morane: :(
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry to hear that I meant ... :)
Stim Morane: well actually, hardly anyone does.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, I don't know what you mean by aliveness much.
Stim Morane: This probably sounds like a dull topic ... but the point is that we could bring it out more, find it, follow it, live from it, refine it into more subtle forms relevant to other aspects of authentic being, etc.
Pila Mulligan: I think it is one of the most valid measures of practice there is
Stim Morane: For me, Gaya, it's an operationally-defined term in a sense ... we try things that may be more in accord with our nature, find a response, then go from there. What we find/feel, = the "meaning".
Stim Morane: it is what we find when we do things along certain lines.
Stim Morane: Yes, Pila, I agree.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok
Stim Morane: it's unfashionable to talk about a "nature", but this doesn't mean we don't have one.
Stim Morane: And one entry into this nature is the aliveness dimension.
Gaya Ethaniel: Better that way than suddenly having Stim hitting me with a stick ... I guess ... :)
Stim Morane: We are usually quite shielded from this, for strange reasons.
Stim Morane: Yes, Gaya. I'll try not to do that.
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: one angle on this whole line of exploration is: if we're not finding/following/feeling our nature, what are we doing instead?
Vendy Walpole: imitate life?
Gaya Ethaniel: Habits, established patterns/rules?
Stim Morane: imitate your own aliveness, Vendy.
Scathach Rhiadra: scattered?
Vendy Walpole: yes
Stim Morane: yes, patterns/habits and fragmentation.
Stim Morane: We are committed to an on-going "turning away" from what we are on various levels.
Gaya Ethaniel: If it's an operational sense, I think it's easy to see it in body but ... aliveness in thoughts ... not sure.
Stim Morane: It's rather perverse, but just comes from not knowing much about what we're leaving.
Stim Morane: yes, Gaya, but start where you can.
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Stim Morane: it could be diff for each person ... I mean, the entry.
Stim Morane: You actually have to try things and see if you get a response.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... I understand.
Scathach Rhiadra: um, do you mean being centred, embodied presence, something like that?
Stim Morane: it's a kind of dressing down, stripping down to the basics
Stim Morane: not in a deconstructive sense, but in the sense of exercising things that seem to basic to be important to the ordinary sense of self.
Stim Morane: too basic
Vendy Walpole: I feel alive when I am totally myself with no shields, and it does not happen each day
Gaya Ethaniel: This 'exercising' ... could you explain a bit more please?
Stim Morane: take a walk, rest, follow your enthusiasms (regardless of whether they're explicable or not) ...
Stim Morane: things like that.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok
Stim Morane: we follow the dictates of habit, memory, preferences of the ordinary self
Mickorod Renard: mmm,,was thinking thats what u meant
Stim Morane: but these have little to do with what Pila and I are claiming is central to a more authentic way of being.
Zon Quar: so..do what u really like ?
Stim Morane: yes, unfortunately, Mick. It sounds so dull, sorry.
Mickorod Renard: no,,not at all
Mickorod Renard: it was just a line of thought I was having
Stim Morane: What do I like? Walking, sleeping, learning, eating, seeing another human being without all the extra agendas added, seeing and participating with anything in the world in a direct way ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I guess being able to see more and to follow shows what else is there other than ordinary way of living?
Stim Morane: yes, Gaya
Stim Morane: As you quoted, only your nature can follow your nature
Stim Morane: you bring out a tiny bit, that enables it/you to find more, etc.
Mickorod Renard: but does your nature require new stimulus during a lifetime?
Stim Morane: but the ordinary self image knows nothing useful in any direct way about this.
Stim Morane: Mick, what do you think?
Mickorod Renard: I think so,,but was worried that we may follow a path not in keeping with our nature,,
Stim Morane: there are so many stages of maturation in a life
Stim Morane: naturally there are different views and levels of following "your nature" too.
Mickorod Renard: or,,are we forced down a path that is alien to our nature?
Stim Morane: there are many pressures to live an a disconnected way, Yes, Mick
Stim Morane: but these are just moves on a game board
Stim Morane: they don't literally "force" us to follow
Stim Morane: we just play along, when we don't need to
Gaya Ethaniel: Going after stimulus to spark feeling of aliveness tires me out normally ...
Stim Morane: stimulus to spark feeling?
Stim Morane: say more (if you wish)?
Stim Morane: do you mean the emphasis on aliveness is deadening?
Stim Morane: this could be true
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, trying out too much ... trying to replicate the feelings. I'd say I often feel this spark when I have a genuine understanding with another person, like seeing myself in her/him and vice versa at the same time.
Stim Morane: yes, certainly we should take your warning to heart
Stim Morane: that dead approach is part of the problem, not the answer
Gaya Ethaniel: Or sometimes listening to music ... but these feelings come naturally without plans.
Stim Morane: hi arabella
Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella :)
Zon Quar: time for bed..nite all
Pila Mulligan: bye Zon
Stim Morane: good night Zon
arabella Ella whispers ... hi everyone apologies i am so late
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Zon :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
Adams Rubble: Hello Arabella; night Zon
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara, bye Zon
Stim Morane: :)
Vendy Walpole: hello Ara
Mickorod Renard: nite Zon
Timbo Quan: Hi Arabella, nite Zon
Stim Morane: note that even traditionally-prescribed practices for cultivating one's sense of things like aliveness can be part of a dead approach.
Stim Morane: Would you agree, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: yes :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Is this connected to 8 winds?
Stim Morane: Gaya, most people won't know this reference ...
Pila Mulligan: in my experience, aliveness relates to the internal circulation of chi (energy from breathing) -- the circulation sustains natural awareness -- this is not really as obscure as it may at first sound, but may be easier to approach in the more general terms Stim has described
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I did listen to your audio files ... cheating and all.
Timbo Quan: Bye all - got to run
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Tim :)
Stim Morane: Yes, Gaya. I know. :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tim
Stim Morane: Bye Timbo
Pila Mulligan: bye Tim
Stim Morane: traditional practices and View teachings are important because we need a place to start and an articulation of the issue.
Mickorod Renard: bye tim
Adams Rubble: bye Timbo
Stim Morane: On the other hand, it's ultimately up to us ...
Stim Morane: I personally know people who use traditional methods to make for another dead life.
Stim Morane: So we have to be flexible, even artful about this.
Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's easy to fall into that trap ...
Stim Morane: Anyway, I'm not sure that this discussion, as framed so far, even has a meaning. Would anyone like to protest, or request a change of channel?
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Protest ... would like to know more about 8 winds ... a reading list?
Stim Morane: it's undoubtedly on Wikipedia ...
Adams Rubble finding the topic dead on
Stim Morane: someone check?
Pila Mulligan doesn't see it there
Stim Morane: it's easy to dismiss the views of the ancient cultures and traditions, but much of what they were pointing out can indeed be found to be playing out in our own existence, even as we look out a window, or duck doing something that would be good for us.
Stim Morane: Oh, surprising, Pila. It's a common enuf thing in some types of literature. That means Gaya will have to explain it to us!
Gaya Ethaniel: Is it enough to just mull over them Stim?
Gaya Ethaniel: I will do some research and write something on wiki?
Adams Rubble: http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/...Winds/id/74598
Pila Mulligan: "A truly wise man will not be carried away by any of the eight winds: prosperity, decline, disgrace, honor, praise, censure, suffering and pleasure. He is neither elated by prosperity nor grieved by decline. The heavenly gods will surely protect one who does not bend before the eight winds."
Stim Morane: I prefer experiments, Gaya. Mulling is too likely to be hijacked by the ordinary, habit-bound mind.
Stim Morane: Thanks, Pila. It sounds very severe, doesn't it?
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... I'm seeing this wind business in regards to practising self ...
Mickorod Renard: pleasure is something I really like too
Stim Morane: All that descriptions like that are really saying is that we bottom out or fragment in ways that could be seen, restrained, then redirected in helpful ways.
Stim Morane: And yes, pleasure is great. It's the grasping for pleasure that is distinctly unpleasant.
Gaya Ethaniel: When I first started meditation, I used to try replicating 'calmness'.
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: And so ... kind of related to the pleasure I think, using practice to a selfish end.
Gaya Ethaniel: Also ignorance really, not seeing what 'calm' really means.
Stim Morane: We do not know how to distinguish between "I want" and "my nature has an appetite for"
arabella Ella: isnt it more Stim ... a sort of equilibrium rather than excess ... that we should aim for?
Stim Morane: yes, arabella ... I admit that many ways of talking about this may serve.
Stim Morane: The main thing is to find yourself in a new, fresh, direct way, then take it from there. Don't get derailed by summaries, abstractions, habits, etc.
arabella Ella nods
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think a lot about my nature and the issue ,,why i have an appetite for what" the the nature nurture and how came my essence into my existence is very important to me
Yakuzza Lethecus: we can think about it and the journey is even a in part why i am around here
Stim Morane: Yes, me too, Yakuzza.
Vendy Walpole: as I am Yaku
Vendy Walpole smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: heh I just like being here :)
Stim Morane: :)
Mickorod Renard: I guess if we eat whats not best for our nature it will never satisfy the appetite?
Stim Morane: Well, I'm basically just laying out an issue ...
Stim Morane: Oh, yes, Mick ...
Stim Morane: this is easily observable
Stim Morane: do you have anecdotes along such lines?
Mickorod Renard: what does anecdote mean?
Stim Morane: personal story
Stim Morane: For example, once a few decades ago, I was on a retreat with my most senior studient
Mickorod Renard: grin..not at hand,,but I am sure I have indulged in lots of bad things
Stim Morane: we lived in a remote area of some mountains in California
Stim Morane: we ate food from a market perhaps 20 miles away, it was good, fresh, etc ... the neighboring bear like it too.
Stim Morane: anyway, we ate all sorts of things that were "right" in some scripted sense
Stim Morane: but we kept feeling hungry
Stim Morane: we were missing something ... probably something obvious
Stim Morane: being foolish, we addressed the problem by eating more of the same things that left us "hungry"
Pila Mulligan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ...
Stim Morane: of course hunger in this ordinary sense is controlled by the brain, evolution, etc etc.
Stim Morane: It's not a very inspired metaphor ...
Stim Morane: but on more fully-dimensioned levels, the same point applies
Stim Morane: we just keep doing the same things that leave us hungry ...
Stim Morane: odd and correctable, really, although in practice it almost never happens.
Gaya Ethaniel: What's 'it' Stim?
Stim Morane: Can we actually take a step towards being satisfied.
Stim Morane: Sorry, Gaya, i meant that we don't usually address the problem
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok ty :)
Stim Morane: I'm a slow typist, sorry
Stim Morane: hard to spit out what I'm thinking ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I need to improve English :)
Stim Morane: anyway, I've described a situation, very human, but also very characteristic of the challenge to our humanity.
Stim Morane: We are not really doing much to live as human beings ... we're often more like robots, or hungry ghosts.
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night
Stim Morane: we have a human nature but don't follow it actively
Stim Morane: bye Yakuzza
Mickorod Renard: nite yaku
Pila Mulligan: bye Yak
Adams Rubble: bye Yak
Vendy Walpole: Good night all and thank you Stim
Pila Mulligan: bye Vendy
Gaya Ethaniel: But ... it's hard to find the right remedy for each situations so ... we look into the main issue first and other things fall into place naturally?
Stim Morane: Bye Vendy
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)
Adams Rubble: bye Vendy
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Vendy
Mickorod Renard: bye vendty
Stim Morane: Gaya, we don't need a multitude of solutions, just a thread connected to the rest of what we are, where the latter is intrinsically participatory, connected, to the world, other beings, the arc of life, etc.
Mickorod Renard: I guess its complicated in that maybe our natures change a little over time too
Stim Morane: yes, Mick, that was the "maturation" angle I mentioned earlier. We're changing, growing into ourselves.
Stim Morane: At least in theory.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: In practice, we're often just getting older.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: But this is not too much of a complexity, just an opportunity.
Stim Morane: Unless you're a teenager, in which case you have my sympathies.
Mickorod Renard: but is this change due to something positive,,or an adaption to something different to our natural self?
arabella Ella: do you mean age is an opportunity Stim?
arabella Ella: please say more ...
Stim Morane: living is an opportunity, arabella, yes.
arabella Ella: yes
Stim Morane: Mick, I'll have to wake up to answer your question.
Stim Morane: Give me a minute.
Mickorod Renard: he he
Pila Mulligan: and Yak's earlier question, 'how came my essence into my existence', also is quite a challenge :)
Mickorod Renard: do I need to rephrase it?
Stim Morane: yes, Pila. I wish we'd chatted about that.
Stim Morane: Mick, that would be so kind.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: yikes
Stim Morane: take pity on an old guy ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Told ya, shouldn't have said anything ...
Mickorod Renard: I was wondering whether the change that takes place in ourselves over time is a positive natural one,,or a change imposed, contrary to our natural self due to life constraints
Pila Mulligan: ... or perhaps can be both, according to the circumstances?
Stim Morane: yes, Mick, it could be either, and is usually both ... but the ratio is not what it might be ... we're not encouraged to grow into what we really are, we're encouraged to bypass such things.
Gaya Ethaniel looks forward to getting old and use 'age' against the young.
Stim Morane: Gaya, I'm sorry.
Mickorod Renard: bypass?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mickorod Renard: interesting
Stim Morane: skip what we should in fact cultivate
Stim Morane: = bypass
Mickorod Renard: yes
Stim Morane: I'm implicitly defining a couple different "natures" here
Stim Morane: One is the "human nature"
arabella Ella: do you think that often happens because we tend to get into a rut ... similar to your hunger analogy?
Stim Morane: another is the "aliveness nature"
Mickorod Renard: I see
Stim Morane: arabella, we do fall into such ruts, but even worse, we are not informed about what the alternatives are.
arabella Ella: ah
Stim Morane: or that there are any
Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... human nature is part of aliveness nature? I always thought when you say 'human nature', you meant nature Stim.
Stim Morane: human nature is one nature to be cooperated with
Stim Morane: aliveness nature is another
Mickorod Renard: so its really ,,dont be afraid of change,,but be open to new stimulus and find out what works for you rather than take negatives
Stim Morane: there are others ... these are two simple ones
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... must re-read some logs then ... :)
Stim Morane: Mick, your proposed advice is nice. But consider, it could be followed by what is completely oblivous of the issues I'm mentioning here. I.e., by the disconnected sense of self, which doesn't know or care about your "nature".
Stim Morane: Gaya, have I misled you somehow? Let me know so I can clarify ...
Gaya Ethaniel: ok ty :)
Mickorod Renard: mmmmmmmmmmm...I am looking at this very hard
Gaya Ethaniel: Or you could tell us a bit more about nature/natures?
Stim Morane: I'm simply saying that, as a convenient shorthand reference, we could say we have several "natures" to be nurtured.
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I think I have it
Stim Morane: This is going to take more discussion, and we're out of time.
Pila Mulligan: I admire Stim's ability as a teacher
Mickorod Renard: yes, I would like to be completely clear on this
Adams Rubble: :)
Stim Morane: obviously I am not saying we are a colony of different natures
arabella Ella nods
Stim Morane: I seem to have no ability at all to discuss anything in SL.
Mickorod Renard: need to know whether I should get rid of my wife
Pila Mulligan: :)
Stim Morane: But you are patient with my attempts to learn ...
arabella Ella: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heh ... so modest ... :) A good role model too.
Stim Morane: Mick, what would she say?
Adams Rubble: :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Mickorod Renard: darnt tell her
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: Homework?
Stim Morane: "Go have a life"
Stim Morane: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Mickorod Renard: I would have to say it was Stims idea
Gaya Ethaniel: That's an everyday homework though ...
Stim Morane: the chat logs exonerate me, Mick
Stim Morane: yes, Gaya
Stim Morane: it is
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Stim Morane: so next time, you will bring back 7 days of homework
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
arabella Ella: is it similar to 'go get a life' Stim?
arabella Ella: get / have
Stim Morane: I prefer "have" or "enjoy" or "celebrate" or "be grateful for"
arabella Ella: :)
Stim Morane: trite stuff, I know ... but actually DOING it is not trite.
Stim Morane: See you next time.
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Stim :)
arabella Ella: thanks Stim
Pila Mulligan: bye
Adams Rubble: Thank you Stim :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Stim
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Adams Rubble: bye Stim and everyone :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night everyone :)
Stim Morane: I look forward to hearing about your homework ... and I won't have to type anything
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heh
Gaya Ethaniel: Have a pity on the young ... :P
Mickorod Renard: he he
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all