10.06.2011 - What is WoK / Metaphor

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    This is the edited chat log from meeting of 2011.10.06

    The "topic" for the meeting was the WoK group itself, it's potential purpose and leadership, since these have seemed unclear in recent sessions.


    oO0Oo: I wonder. Do you know who if anyone is heading WoK? Also Gaya seemed to come quite often, but don't see her much anymore.
    Calvino Rabeni: This was to be a meeting to discuss the status of the WOK group
    Calvino Rabeni: And Bruce was good enough to send a couple of emails about it, to the PaB and WoK lists
    Calvino Rabeni: Unfortunately, I think, that Bruce cannot attend today because his internet does not work
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce was going to try and make it but he's havig computer problems
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's fair to say, that the nature and leadership of the WOK group are now uncertain, floating
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce was acting as chair it seemed
    Calvino Rabeni: Bruce was, for a short time, because it seemed needed
    Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we ned a more specific theme
    Calvino Rabeni: but there was not a clear consensus, nor, I think, a strong feeling from Bruce on leadership
    Calvino Rabeni: It was a case of "it needs to be done, so I'll do it" I think
    FcSeeker: would you Cal be the leader ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps some of the subjects we discuss in OF can be discussed her too
    Calvino Rabeni: I would consider doing it with someone else ... as a small group
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is important the group be small?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, could be, Aph
    Pila Mulligan: In the beginning, Stim created the Wok session ... he gave it such a strong start the first year that it seemed to keep its momentum after he left
    Pila Mulligan: at this point it seems to be recreating itself
    Calvino Rabeni: a leader group? I think small is good, what do you think?
    Aphrodite Macbain: How small?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the momemtum lasted, I think it played out
    FcSeeker: one person I'de think :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I think the size depends on motivation
    Calvino Rabeni: rather than being a fixed number
    Calvino Rabeni: motivation and creativity
    Calvino Rabeni: You remember it under Stim, don't you, Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: how about a breif look at what Wok will be going forward?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's the idea for discussion today
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps it could be a rotating chai so that it isn't always on one person's shoulders
    Aphrodite Macbain: chair
    Calvino Rabeni: One idea is that it was / will continue to be a topic-oriented focused contemplation group
    Pila Mulligan: hi Bert
    Calvino Rabeni: A rotating chair might work
    Calvino Rabeni: Bert, this meeting is to discuss ideas about the future of the WOK group
    Calvino Rabeni: it's too bad Bruce couldn't be here (for tech reasons)
    Bertram Jacobus: i see. ty for briefing me ! :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: He cares a lot about the vitality of the group
    FcSeeker: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: One idea about it is, to keep it focused, with a topic, and "homework" during the week, and people share by writing reports on the web site
    oO0Oo: The group is none other than the vitality of its participants
    Aphrodite Macbain: It might be interesting to review the early discussions of WoK to see if we could revisit them. The subject might attract people to come
    Calvino Rabeni: If the members don't take on the practice - contemplating the topic during the week - then the discussions will have less depth and focus
    Aphrodite Macbain: Rathe r than coming to WOK they come to discuss a particular subject. Different motivation
    Calvino Rabeni: it will then be more like an informal chat group
    FcSeeker: ah...then panda cannot be the member of the group...
    Aphrodite Macbain: why Fc?
    FcSeeker: cannot take any homework and no time to any reporting
    Calvino Rabeni: So I guess one question is, what people want from it and care to put into it
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps though Fc you can do this well in your mind?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we can go round the room?
    FcSeeker: (panda wants to meet friends and talk about anything)
    Pila Mulligan: I'd suggest looking at the group's potential as a blank slate, seeing if you can what people want to do from now forward rather than what has been done in the past
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's just hard to begin with a blank slate Pila
    FcSeeker: ah yes Cal
    Pila Mulligan: yes, but that is where we seem to be :)
    Calvino Rabeni: A blank slate often turns into a default decision, I mean just a habit, not seeking a potential
    FcSeeker: I also agree to look foreward
    Calvino Rabeni: so looking forward might also include forming intentions
    oO0Oo: So what is being recreated if anything. The title is preserved, but no forms?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am interested in coming and discussing ideas in depth with some adequate preparation ahead of time. Otherwise the conversation becomes ver diluted
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: very
    Alfred Kelberry: aph, agreed
    Pila Mulligan: that seems like a nice idea
    Alfred Kelberry: hi, btw :)
    oO0Oo: :) boxy
    Aphrodite Macbain: I would be interested in looking at some of the previous topics because I may never have encountered them during my life in SL
    Aphrodite Macbain: It will be new to me and perhaps to others who are a bit younger
    Alfred Kelberry: sorry, what's the topic today?
    Alfred Kelberry: aph :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: da future of WOK
    Calvino Rabeni: For me, adequate preparation means, there's a way to know the focus ahead of time, and hopefully some "starter" statement that gets things rolling, at least several days before the meeting.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes agreed Cal
    Alfred Kelberry: right
    Pila Mulligan: so the process for slecting the topic becomes important
    Alfred Kelberry: hopefully, the "starter" is focused enough
    Calvino Rabeni: Reading and writing reports also helps (some) people get deeper with the topic too
    Alfred Kelberry: not "why we're here"
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. can it be something brand new? Need it be?
    FcSeeker: is there something brand new ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: no
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, cal. that's what eliza suggested. i like it, given we have time.
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems though, not everyone wants to do that .. but unless there are a few, the others will slowly give up because they aren't being joined in their efforts
    Aphrodite Macbain: How about the rise and fall of discussion groups - the life of
    Calvino Rabeni: (meaning, the writing / reading)
    Alfred Kelberry: brand new iphone
    Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we can all come up with three topics for next week
    Calvino Rabeni: The group title ... "Ways of Knowing" can be taken defining the approach, can't it?
    FcSeeker: why not ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: approach to what Cal?
    FcSeeker: to anything
    Aphrodite Macbain: the ways of knowing?
    Calvino Rabeni: Saying the group is about Ways of Knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: in other words, certain topics point towards ways of knowing, others not so much
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we can break those ways down into sub categories that we can explore
    FcSeeker: we could for example have such topic that how many ways people approach things...and why...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Snap!
    FcSeeker: could be topic for many meetings...
    Calvino Rabeni: yes Fc
    Aphrodite Macbain: Agreed Fc
    Calvino Rabeni: the topic could be "ways of knowing" for a meeting
    Calvino Rabeni: how many ways do we have of knowing, that are familiar, or interesting, or available
    Aphrodite Macbain: ways of thinking? ways of understanding?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure
    Aphrodite Macbain: ways of hearing?
    Calvino Rabeni: knowing includes experience
    Aphrodite Macbain: ways of learning?
    Calvino Rabeni: seeing
    Calvino Rabeni: knowing includes a lot, doesn't it
    FcSeeker: <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
    Aphrodite Macbain: ayupp
    Calvino Rabeni: Like e.g. how about an artist's way of seeing / knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: or a dancer
    Calvino Rabeni: they move through the world in different ways
    Calvino Rabeni: or a poet
    Aphrodite Macbain: mm I like that- creative ways of knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: or an engineer
    Aphrodite Macbain: or a clown
    Calvino Rabeni: some common ways of knowing we have all around include things like "problem solving"
    Calvino Rabeni: that leave out aesthetics
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen's not here, but he was interested lately in "Focusing" which is a technique, a kind of wayof knowing also
    Aphrodite Macbain: way of perceiving rather than seeing?
    Pila Mulligan: Ways of Knowing was a theme Stim worked with extensively prior to starting the first year of sessions -- it is perhaps better as a group name, rather than a topic guide
    Pila Mulligan: I think the group will thrive or flounder according to how the chosen topics evovle in discussions -- good discussions make good groups -- so how to keep the topics lively seems something to consider
    Calvino Rabeni: Gardening .. I suppose many things people know could be ways, or turn into ways through metaphor
    Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain notices that we're coming up with lots of ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree, Pila
    Aphrodite Macbain: hermeneutics
    Alfred Kelberry: i think stim had a scientific approach to it. more rigor and investigative.
    Calvino Rabeni: It takes a certain focus ... remembering .. to bridge the gap between sesions and create some continuity to support "evolving"
    Alfred Kelberry: i'd like to see more of that
    Aphrodite Macbain: I like trhe idea of discussing metaphors and how they shape how we think
    Calvino Rabeni: That is some kind of bigger container for the discussions
    Calvino Rabeni: whether it is worked out in concept, or carried through memory and experienced
    Aphrodite Macbain: there is always some form of adminastrivia to consider
    Calvino Rabeni: A scientific approach to phenomenology was the kidn of thing Stim and Pema were interested in at the beginning
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it means "being systematic and focused"
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema was writing things like "life as a laboratory" at that time
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. with a 3-year plan. :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: that's how we can frame our experiences
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bertram, Breezer, what would you suggest?
    Calvino Rabeni: Metaphors are a good topic too, I think
    Alfred Kelberry: otherwise it's spread out and blurry
    Calvino Rabeni: A "way of knowing" is itself a frame for experience
    Breezer Tomsen: well I am kinda new around here, just found out about play of being, but this sounds nice to...
    Calvino Rabeni: that organizes experience in particular ways
    Aphrodite Macbain: it's a wide frame
    Calvino Rabeni: And "ways of knowing" is like a frame of frames
    Alfred Kelberry: not that it's a bad thing, but not very suitable for a conclusive discussion
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m sorry . i still feel my well known problems with the language. but my approach to knpwledge is experience and logic i guess ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: How would you like these discussions to be organized bertram?
    Alfred Kelberry: fresh breeze is very timely now :)
    oO0Oo: oO0Oo likes how bertram just keeps working with the language barrier. :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i liked the form when sometimes the talks went person by person, round the circle ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Neurophilosophy is getting to be pretty influential, sort of defining how people think about knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: ah yes Bert
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes bertram - it allows everyone a voice
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that form of going around too
    Aphrodite Macbain: Neurophilosophy - now there's a meaty subject. Thit would be fun to explore
    Bertram Jacobus: but may be sometimes also a free form is better to be able to be more spontaneous
    Pila Mulligan: well, it seems the group wants to proceed with weekly discussion themes that come from a broad foundation of possibilities
    Calvino Rabeni: Another meaty one .. group cognition (or group intelligence)
    Aphrodite Macbain: A bit of both perhaps
    Breezer Tomsen: if there is a leader or more than one, it might be an idea to come up with a new topic for next week at the end of each meeting, the leaders and people then have time to prepare , and its interactive
    Pila Mulligan: maybe the discussion format can be an experiment from sessionto session
    Bertram Jacobus: may be a mix of the different forms would be best - one week round, another week free or however
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes cal. We have alot to talk about, what we are lacking is an organization framework to push this forward
    Alfred Kelberry: pila, i like that
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes it could be, but an experiment needs to be done a few times running, I think, because people take time to become part of the process
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Breezer- that has worked well before
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have also found that one session is not enough to exhaust a topic. Often we just get going and it's over...
    Alfred Kelberry: let's come up with the next meeting topic
    Calvino Rabeni: One group I was in had rotating leadership, but each leader would do a few in a row, to allow for learning-from-experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: Makes sense. A learning process
    Calvino Rabeni: one session seems to just touch the surface of a good topic
    Pila Mulligan: should the leaders prepare the topics and intoductins?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say yes to that too
    Aphrodite Macbain: That's why it is good to have a reasonable sized group so it is not always the same people doing the work
    Calvino Rabeni: but it gets to be a lot for one person to do without backup ... it could be more fun for the leaders to have a little support or team work
    Pila Mulligan: plus there's the wiki
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm interested in the 2 last topics that Cal mentioned
    Alfred Kelberry: which ones?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Brains and groups - to put it succinctly
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that was neurophilosophy and group cognition or group intelligence
    Alfred Kelberry: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: which sort of overlap in social cognitive neuroscience
    Aphrodite Macbain: That- what he said
    Calvino Rabeni: heh
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, whast is the starter for these?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Cal - do you feel comfortable setting us up with one of these?
    Alfred Kelberry: i think maybe each topic should come with a question
    Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain nods
    Alfred Kelberry: it's both a starter and a direction
    Calvino Rabeni: hmm, with a little help yes, Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: Can I help?
    Calvino Rabeni: Questions are great to focus
    Alfred Kelberry: like bruce's "metaphor: trick or treat"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- iot will get others interested
    Calvino Rabeni: What's that, Alfred?
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce's proposed topic
    Aphrodite Macbain: questions engage people more than statements
    Alfred Kelberry: for wok
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: oh, about metaphors,what they do for us that's important, and how that could be also be a problem sometimes
    Alfred Kelberry: it has spawned from the previous discussion on metaphors
    Aphrodite Macbain: how they shape the way we think
    Calvino Rabeni: That topic seems to have momentum
    Calvino Rabeni: (which itself is a metaphor)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a slippery topic :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Things can get tangled
    Calvino Rabeni: but it's fundamental
    Calvino Rabeni: (all metaphors about metaphors)
    Aphrodite Macbain: George Lakoff pt1 of 6 - Frameworks, Empathy and Sustainability
    Alfred Kelberry: not slippery with a focused question
    Aphrodite Macbain: he talks alot about metaphors we live by
    Alfred Kelberry: any topic by itself is slippery
    Calvino Rabeni: Still is, Alfred, even the professional philosophers argue
    Aphrodite Macbain: oops
    Alfred Kelberry: that's why an investigative statement is required
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the framing of the question comes after a lot of thought, and leads to a further development
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sooo- we will talk about metaphor? and ask Bruce to chair and send ot reading material?
    Aphrodite Macbain: out
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, let's volunteer Bruce for that :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) I think he want s to do it...
    Calvino Rabeni: If he finds it burdensome, .. even if he doesn't, I can help
    FcSeeker: and Aph could help Cal to be this 'other leader' ????
    Aphrodite Macbain: I can help.
    FcSeeker: then there would be male and female force working together :)))))))
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, also. as i mentioend in the email. it'd be nice to make a conclusion at the end of each meeting answering the topical question.
    Aphrodite Macbain: not lead
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm a synthesis. Now thee's the challeng
    Alfred Kelberry: product of the dicsussion
    Calvino Rabeni: Sounds like there are 3 with some energy for leadership ... or maybe another metaphor is gardeners .. cultivating or watering
    Calvino Rabeni: heh Alfred
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the idea of a synthesis
    Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Cal - I perfer gardener!
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it would take a couple sessions though, at least
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, let's give the subjexct space nd time
    Calvino Rabeni: "Choose your metaphor"
    Aphrodite Macbain: subject
    Aphrodite Macbain: what about the one Bruce suggested?
    Aphrodite Macbain: or has that already been used?
    Calvino Rabeni: How did he put it?
    Alfred Kelberry: metaphor: trick or treat
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. rather appropriate for now
    Calvino Rabeni: it was "Metaphor - Treat or Trap"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hwe would have to say what the distinction refers to
    Alfred Kelberry: oh wait! heh, here's your information skew :)
    Alfred Kelberry: correct, cal
    Calvino Rabeni: a similar idea though...
    Aphrodite Macbain: what's wrong with trick or treat?
    Aphrodite Macbain: a trap can be a trick
    oO0Oo: suggest this discussion be Part 1. allowing Zen, Bruce, Eliza and any other interested persons to read this discussion and input next week.
    FcSeeker: via versa
    Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe Bruce can decide as he will be doing the work
    Alfred Kelberry: i'd like it more precise, but it will do, i guess
    Alfred Kelberry: pila :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Feel free, Alfred
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: to propose some precise formulations
    Alfred Kelberry: thanks :)
    Calvino Rabeni: it could be useful to Bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you mean not have a theme subject next week Sam and contiue to talk about WOK?
    oO0Oo: that was my thought yes
    Calvino Rabeni: So they are part of the "what is WOK" discussion
    oO0Oo: though not wanting to stifle people's momentum either
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, well, in essence it's a question of the subject being good or evil
    Calvino Rabeni: wow, Al, ok that's a jump
    Calvino Rabeni: does it become then a discussion of ethics.?
    Alfred Kelberry: but that's too broad
    Aphrodite Macbain: good or evil?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, the use of metaphors (given bruce's notion)
    Aphrodite Macbain: where did that come from?
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm I dont see tham having to do with moral judgement at all
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is an evil metaphor?
    Alfred Kelberry: heh, that's a good example of us now exerting varions metaphors to "good and evil" :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure what all he meant, but it does ask, whether we can see the pragmatic and important effects at work
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, useful or not useful
    Calvino Rabeni: hmm, an evil metaphor ...
    Calvino Rabeni: well about usefulness, the question is "for what"?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, useful is better
    Aphrodite Macbain: begone bad metaphor!
    Calvino Rabeni: and an overall assessment is hard, looking at all the pro's and con's
    Calvino Rabeni: Take the metaphor "time is money"
    Calvino Rabeni: is it good? bad? both? what effect does it have?
    Aphrodite Macbain: morals can certainly be broaught into the discussion
    Alfred Kelberry: pila, what do you think?
    Pila Mulligan: not thinking at themoment, thatnks Alf :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: heh
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sometimes metaphors are neutral but explain something abstract more clearly
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, heh, that could actually be neat if we took one metaphor and dissected it :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: or maye a few differnt kinds of metaphors
    Alfred Kelberry: can't go more precise than that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: sure, it seems it would help the focus to go into specifics, Alfred
    Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps illustrative examples
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes .. some examples to get a sense of the map, then go into one of them
    Calvino Rabeni: (map being a metaphor)
    Alfred Kelberry: given our multicultural presence, we could then go on and pick a few metaphors from other languages
    Aphrodite Macbain: nice
    Calvino Rabeni: for example, take the metaphor of a "topic"
    Alfred Kelberry: topic?
    Aphrodite Macbain: topic of cancer
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: huh?
    Aphrodite Macbain: kidding
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: do not kid with cancer :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: So, where are we?
    Bertram Jacobus: midnight here. have to get up early tomorrow - so i´ll finish for today , too ... (here) - ty and bye ! *wave* ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Where I'd feel comfortable being is to leave it to Bruce and maybe eliza, whether they want to continue with "what is WOK" or move on to "metaphors"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Shall I ask Bruce to present his topic over the next two weekand distribute some reading?
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, let's pick a metaphor like "time is money" but something less known, i think
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's Bruce's call?
    Alfred Kelberry: will start with it
    Alfred Kelberry: um...
    Alfred Kelberry: we'll help him out :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: OK It's also a saying. Metaphors are also thing s we take for granted as in "bigger is bet" or full means up or high
    Calvino Rabeni: yes those are basic Aph
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a fine suggestion
    Aphrodite Macbain: Those videos really help
    Alfred Kelberry: "bigger is bet"? i don't know this one
    Aphrodite Macbain: best
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: things having buzz, topics being hot, questions being murky, etc.
    Aphrodite Macbain: hell is murky
    Calvino Rabeni: And there are the "ways of knowing" questions
    Calvino Rabeni: applied to metaphors
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh? like?
    Calvino Rabeni: like how do you get into them
    Alfred Kelberry: mell is hurky
    Aphrodite Macbain: smell is turkey
    Calvino Rabeni: well one way is to look for the schemas they embody, and use imagination to further them
    Calvino Rabeni: another is to look at linguistics
    Aphrodite Macbain: We have a WG meeting next week Boxy
    Calvino Rabeni: these are different ways of knowing about metaphor
    Aphrodite Macbain: OK I see Cal
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, i think maybe it's about perception
    Aphrodite Macbain: Now I need to go. Shall I talk to Bruce or will you? Probably you I think might be best
    Calvino Rabeni: ok, I volunteer, to put this chat log onto the wiki so Bruce can see it
    Alfred Kelberry: we learn ways we percive them
    Alfred Kelberry: given we have a metaphor to start with (and hopefully a few others from other cultures) will be a good investigative context into the ways of knowing
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    :) It was great to read this session... found myself nodding... "Hm, yes" a lot. Scientific-style exploration in this case meant looking into own lives, own ways of being holding a focus or sometimes view/question ... hm, like an instrument at times. In many ways I'm still working daily with the very first exercizes begun here (my pab and wok journey evolves together)!

    Key line for me: Calvino Rabeni: If the members don't take on the practice - contemplating the topic during the week - then the discussions will have less depth and focus

    I felt the momentum and discussions stayed quite rich, but we have lots of discussion opportunities so the gift of WoK is the direct practice. I miss it. :)

    It was nice too, to hear from Stim on the matter. edited 02:19, 7 Oct 2011
    Posted 02:12, 7 Oct 2011
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