Page last modified 22:39, 6 Oct 2011 by Calvino
10.06.2011 - What is WoK / Metaphor
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This is the edited chat log from meeting of 2011.10.06
The "topic" for the meeting was the WoK group itself, it's potential purpose and leadership, since these have seemed unclear in recent sessions.
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oO0Oo: I wonder. Do you know who if anyone is heading WoK? Also Gaya seemed to come quite often, but don't see her much anymore.
Calvino Rabeni: This was to be a meeting to discuss the status of the WOK group
Calvino Rabeni: And Bruce was good enough to send a couple of emails about it, to the PaB and WoK lists
Calvino Rabeni: Unfortunately, I think, that Bruce cannot attend today because his internet does not work
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce was going to try and make it but he's havig computer problems
Calvino Rabeni: I think it's fair to say, that the nature and leadership of the WOK group are now uncertain, floating
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce was acting as chair it seemed
Calvino Rabeni: Bruce was, for a short time, because it seemed needed
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we ned a more specific theme
Calvino Rabeni: but there was not a clear consensus, nor, I think, a strong feeling from Bruce on leadership
Calvino Rabeni: It was a case of "it needs to be done, so I'll do it" I think
FcSeeker: would you Cal be the leader ?
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps some of the subjects we discuss in OF can be discussed her too
Calvino Rabeni: I would consider doing it with someone else ... as a small group
Aphrodite Macbain: Is important the group be small?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, could be, Aph
Pila Mulligan: In the beginning, Stim created the Wok session ... he gave it such a strong start the first year that it seemed to keep its momentum after he left
Pila Mulligan: at this point it seems to be recreating itself
Calvino Rabeni: a leader group? I think small is good, what do you think?
Aphrodite Macbain: How small?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the momemtum lasted, I think it played out
FcSeeker: one person I'de think :)
Pila Mulligan: yes
Calvino Rabeni: I think the size depends on motivation
Calvino Rabeni: rather than being a fixed number
Calvino Rabeni: motivation and creativity
Calvino Rabeni: You remember it under Stim, don't you, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: how about a breif look at what Wok will be going forward?
Pila Mulligan: yes, Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's the idea for discussion today
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps it could be a rotating chai so that it isn't always on one person's shoulders
Aphrodite Macbain: chair
Calvino Rabeni: One idea is that it was / will continue to be a topic-oriented focused contemplation group
Pila Mulligan: hi Bert
Calvino Rabeni: A rotating chair might work
Calvino Rabeni: Bert, this meeting is to discuss ideas about the future of the WOK group
Calvino Rabeni: it's too bad Bruce couldn't be here (for tech reasons)
Bertram Jacobus: i see. ty for briefing me ! :-)
Calvino Rabeni: He cares a lot about the vitality of the group
FcSeeker: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Calvino Rabeni: One idea about it is, to keep it focused, with a topic, and "homework" during the week, and people share by writing reports on the web site
oO0Oo: The group is none other than the vitality of its participants
Aphrodite Macbain: It might be interesting to review the early discussions of WoK to see if we could revisit them. The subject might attract people to come
Calvino Rabeni: If the members don't take on the practice - contemplating the topic during the week - then the discussions will have less depth and focus
Aphrodite Macbain: Rathe r than coming to WOK they come to discuss a particular subject. Different motivation
Calvino Rabeni: it will then be more like an informal chat group
FcSeeker: ah...then panda cannot be the member of the group...
Aphrodite Macbain: why Fc?
FcSeeker: cannot take any homework and no time to any reporting
Calvino Rabeni: So I guess one question is, what people want from it and care to put into it
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps though Fc you can do this well in your mind?
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we can go round the room?
FcSeeker: (panda wants to meet friends and talk about anything)
Pila Mulligan: I'd suggest looking at the group's potential as a blank slate, seeing if you can what people want to do from now forward rather than what has been done in the past
Aphrodite Macbain: It's just hard to begin with a blank slate Pila
FcSeeker: ah yes Cal
Pila Mulligan: yes, but that is where we seem to be :)
Calvino Rabeni: A blank slate often turns into a default decision, I mean just a habit, not seeking a potential
FcSeeker: I also agree to look foreward
Calvino Rabeni: so looking forward might also include forming intentions
oO0Oo: So what is being recreated if anything. The title is preserved, but no forms?
Aphrodite Macbain: I am interested in coming and discussing ideas in depth with some adequate preparation ahead of time. Otherwise the conversation becomes ver diluted
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni nods
Aphrodite Macbain: very
Alfred Kelberry: aph, agreed
Pila Mulligan: that seems like a nice idea
Alfred Kelberry: hi, btw :)
oO0Oo: :) boxy
Aphrodite Macbain: I would be interested in looking at some of the previous topics because I may never have encountered them during my life in SL
Aphrodite Macbain: It will be new to me and perhaps to others who are a bit younger
Alfred Kelberry: sorry, what's the topic today?
Alfred Kelberry: aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: da future of WOK
Calvino Rabeni: For me, adequate preparation means, there's a way to know the focus ahead of time, and hopefully some "starter" statement that gets things rolling, at least several days before the meeting.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: yes agreed Cal
Alfred Kelberry: right
Pila Mulligan: so the process for slecting the topic becomes important
Alfred Kelberry: hopefully, the "starter" is focused enough
Calvino Rabeni: Reading and writing reports also helps (some) people get deeper with the topic too
Alfred Kelberry: not "why we're here"
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. can it be something brand new? Need it be?
FcSeeker: is there something brand new ...
Aphrodite Macbain: no
Alfred Kelberry: yes, cal. that's what eliza suggested. i like it, given we have time.
Calvino Rabeni: It seems though, not everyone wants to do that .. but unless there are a few, the others will slowly give up because they aren't being joined in their efforts
Aphrodite Macbain: How about the rise and fall of discussion groups - the life of
Calvino Rabeni: (meaning, the writing / reading)
Alfred Kelberry: brand new iphone
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we can all come up with three topics for next week
Calvino Rabeni: The group title ... "Ways of Knowing" can be taken defining the approach, can't it?
FcSeeker: why not ?
Aphrodite Macbain: approach to what Cal?
FcSeeker: to anything
Aphrodite Macbain: the ways of knowing?
Calvino Rabeni: Saying the group is about Ways of Knowing
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: in other words, certain topics point towards ways of knowing, others not so much
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we can break those ways down into sub categories that we can explore
FcSeeker: we could for example have such topic that how many ways people approach things...and why...
Aphrodite Macbain: Snap!
FcSeeker: could be topic for many meetings...
Calvino Rabeni: yes Fc
Aphrodite Macbain: Agreed Fc
Calvino Rabeni: the topic could be "ways of knowing" for a meeting
Calvino Rabeni: how many ways do we have of knowing, that are familiar, or interesting, or available
Aphrodite Macbain: ways of thinking? ways of understanding?
Calvino Rabeni: Sure
Aphrodite Macbain: ways of hearing?
Calvino Rabeni: knowing includes experience
Aphrodite Macbain: ways of learning?
Calvino Rabeni: seeing
Calvino Rabeni: knowing includes a lot, doesn't it
FcSeeker: <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
Aphrodite Macbain: ayupp
Calvino Rabeni: Like e.g. how about an artist's way of seeing / knowing
Calvino Rabeni: or a dancer
Calvino Rabeni: they move through the world in different ways
Calvino Rabeni: or a poet
Aphrodite Macbain: mm I like that- creative ways of knowing
Calvino Rabeni: or an engineer
Aphrodite Macbain: or a clown
Calvino Rabeni: some common ways of knowing we have all around include things like "problem solving"
Calvino Rabeni: that leave out aesthetics
Calvino Rabeni: Zen's not here, but he was interested lately in "Focusing" which is a technique, a kind of wayof knowing also
Aphrodite Macbain: way of perceiving rather than seeing?
Pila Mulligan: Ways of Knowing was a theme Stim worked with extensively prior to starting the first year of sessions -- it is perhaps better as a group name, rather than a topic guide
Pila Mulligan: I think the group will thrive or flounder according to how the chosen topics evovle in discussions -- good discussions make good groups -- so how to keep the topics lively seems something to consider
Calvino Rabeni: Gardening .. I suppose many things people know could be ways, or turn into ways through metaphor
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain notices that we're coming up with lots of ideas
Calvino Rabeni: Agree, Pila
Aphrodite Macbain: hermeneutics
Alfred Kelberry: i think stim had a scientific approach to it. more rigor and investigative.
Calvino Rabeni: It takes a certain focus ... remembering .. to bridge the gap between sesions and create some continuity to support "evolving"
Alfred Kelberry: i'd like to see more of that
Aphrodite Macbain: I like trhe idea of discussing metaphors and how they shape how we think
Calvino Rabeni: That is some kind of bigger container for the discussions
Calvino Rabeni: whether it is worked out in concept, or carried through memory and experienced
Aphrodite Macbain: there is always some form of adminastrivia to consider
Calvino Rabeni: A scientific approach to phenomenology was the kidn of thing Stim and Pema were interested in at the beginning
Calvino Rabeni: I think it means "being systematic and focused"
Calvino Rabeni: Pema was writing things like "life as a laboratory" at that time
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. with a 3-year plan. :-)
Alfred Kelberry: that's how we can frame our experiences
Aphrodite Macbain: Bertram, Breezer, what would you suggest?
Calvino Rabeni: Metaphors are a good topic too, I think
Alfred Kelberry: otherwise it's spread out and blurry
Calvino Rabeni: A "way of knowing" is itself a frame for experience
Breezer Tomsen: well I am kinda new around here, just found out about play of being, but this sounds nice to...
Calvino Rabeni: that organizes experience in particular ways
Aphrodite Macbain: it's a wide frame
Calvino Rabeni: And "ways of knowing" is like a frame of frames
Alfred Kelberry: not that it's a bad thing, but not very suitable for a conclusive discussion
Bertram Jacobus: i´m sorry . i still feel my well known problems with the language. but my approach to knpwledge is experience and logic i guess ...
Aphrodite Macbain: How would you like these discussions to be organized bertram?
Alfred Kelberry: fresh breeze is very timely now :)
oO0Oo: oO0Oo likes how bertram just keeps working with the language barrier. :)
Bertram Jacobus: i liked the form when sometimes the talks went person by person, round the circle ...
Calvino Rabeni: Neurophilosophy is getting to be pretty influential, sort of defining how people think about knowing
Calvino Rabeni: ah yes Bert
Aphrodite Macbain: yes bertram - it allows everyone a voice
Calvino Rabeni: I like that form of going around too
Aphrodite Macbain: Neurophilosophy - now there's a meaty subject. Thit would be fun to explore
Bertram Jacobus: but may be sometimes also a free form is better to be able to be more spontaneous
Pila Mulligan: well, it seems the group wants to proceed with weekly discussion themes that come from a broad foundation of possibilities
Calvino Rabeni: Another meaty one .. group cognition (or group intelligence)
Aphrodite Macbain: A bit of both perhaps
Breezer Tomsen: if there is a leader or more than one, it might be an idea to come up with a new topic for next week at the end of each meeting, the leaders and people then have time to prepare , and its interactive
Pila Mulligan: maybe the discussion format can be an experiment from sessionto session
Bertram Jacobus: may be a mix of the different forms would be best - one week round, another week free or however
Aphrodite Macbain: yes cal. We have alot to talk about, what we are lacking is an organization framework to push this forward
Alfred Kelberry: pila, i like that
Calvino Rabeni: Yes it could be, but an experiment needs to be done a few times running, I think, because people take time to become part of the process
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Breezer- that has worked well before
Aphrodite Macbain: I have also found that one session is not enough to exhaust a topic. Often we just get going and it's over...
Alfred Kelberry: let's come up with the next meeting topic
Calvino Rabeni: One group I was in had rotating leadership, but each leader would do a few in a row, to allow for learning-from-experiences
Calvino Rabeni: Yes Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Makes sense. A learning process
Calvino Rabeni: one session seems to just touch the surface of a good topic
Pila Mulligan: should the leaders prepare the topics and intoductins?
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: I'd say yes to that too
Aphrodite Macbain: That's why it is good to have a reasonable sized group so it is not always the same people doing the work
Calvino Rabeni: but it gets to be a lot for one person to do without backup ... it could be more fun for the leaders to have a little support or team work
Pila Mulligan: plus there's the wiki
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm interested in the 2 last topics that Cal mentioned
Alfred Kelberry: which ones?
Aphrodite Macbain: Brains and groups - to put it succinctly
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: I think that was neurophilosophy and group cognition or group intelligence
Alfred Kelberry: ah
Calvino Rabeni: which sort of overlap in social cognitive neuroscience
Aphrodite Macbain: That- what he said
Calvino Rabeni: heh
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Alfred Kelberry: ok, whast is the starter for these?
Aphrodite Macbain: Cal - do you feel comfortable setting us up with one of these?
Alfred Kelberry: i think maybe each topic should come with a question
Aphrodite Macbain: Aphrodite Macbain nods
Alfred Kelberry: it's both a starter and a direction
Calvino Rabeni: hmm, with a little help yes, Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Can I help?
Calvino Rabeni: Questions are great to focus
Alfred Kelberry: like bruce's "metaphor: trick or treat"
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- iot will get others interested
Calvino Rabeni: What's that, Alfred?
Alfred Kelberry: bruce's proposed topic
Aphrodite Macbain: questions engage people more than statements
Alfred Kelberry: for wok
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Calvino Rabeni: oh, about metaphors,what they do for us that's important, and how that could be also be a problem sometimes
Alfred Kelberry: it has spawned from the previous discussion on metaphors
Aphrodite Macbain: how they shape the way we think
Calvino Rabeni: That topic seems to have momentum
Calvino Rabeni: (which itself is a metaphor)
Calvino Rabeni: It's a slippery topic :)
Calvino Rabeni: Things can get tangled
Calvino Rabeni: but it's fundamental
Calvino Rabeni: (all metaphors about metaphors)
Aphrodite Macbain: George Lakoff pt1 of 6 - Frameworks, Empathy and Sustainability
Alfred Kelberry: not slippery with a focused question
Aphrodite Macbain: he talks alot about metaphors we live by
Alfred Kelberry: any topic by itself is slippery
Calvino Rabeni: Still is, Alfred, even the professional philosophers argue
Aphrodite Macbain: oops
Alfred Kelberry: that's why an investigative statement is required
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the framing of the question comes after a lot of thought, and leads to a further development
Aphrodite Macbain: Sooo- we will talk about metaphor? and ask Bruce to chair and send ot reading material?
Aphrodite Macbain: out
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, let's volunteer Bruce for that :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) I think he want s to do it...
Calvino Rabeni: If he finds it burdensome, .. even if he doesn't, I can help
FcSeeker: and Aph could help Cal to be this 'other leader' ????
Aphrodite Macbain: I can help.
FcSeeker: then there would be male and female force working together :)))))))
Alfred Kelberry: ah, also. as i mentioend in the email. it'd be nice to make a conclusion at the end of each meeting answering the topical question.
Aphrodite Macbain: not lead
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm a synthesis. Now thee's the challeng
Alfred Kelberry: product of the dicsussion
Calvino Rabeni: Sounds like there are 3 with some energy for leadership ... or maybe another metaphor is gardeners .. cultivating or watering
Calvino Rabeni: heh Alfred
Calvino Rabeni: I like the idea of a synthesis
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Cal - I perfer gardener!
Calvino Rabeni: I think it would take a couple sessions though, at least
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, let's give the subjexct space nd time
Calvino Rabeni: "Choose your metaphor"
Aphrodite Macbain: subject
Aphrodite Macbain: what about the one Bruce suggested?
Aphrodite Macbain: or has that already been used?
Calvino Rabeni: How did he put it?
Alfred Kelberry: metaphor: trick or treat
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. rather appropriate for now
Calvino Rabeni: it was "Metaphor - Treat or Trap"
Aphrodite Macbain: Hwe would have to say what the distinction refers to
Alfred Kelberry: oh wait! heh, here's your information skew :)
Alfred Kelberry: correct, cal
Calvino Rabeni: a similar idea though...
Aphrodite Macbain: what's wrong with trick or treat?
Aphrodite Macbain: a trap can be a trick
oO0Oo: suggest this discussion be Part 1. allowing Zen, Bruce, Eliza and any other interested persons to read this discussion and input next week.
FcSeeker: via versa
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe Bruce can decide as he will be doing the work
Alfred Kelberry: i'd like it more precise, but it will do, i guess
Alfred Kelberry: pila :)
Calvino Rabeni: Feel free, Alfred
Pila Mulligan: :)
Calvino Rabeni: to propose some precise formulations
Alfred Kelberry: thanks :)
Calvino Rabeni: it could be useful to Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you mean not have a theme subject next week Sam and contiue to talk about WOK?
oO0Oo: that was my thought yes
Calvino Rabeni: So they are part of the "what is WOK" discussion
oO0Oo: though not wanting to stifle people's momentum either
Alfred Kelberry: cal, well, in essence it's a question of the subject being good or evil
Calvino Rabeni: wow, Al, ok that's a jump
Calvino Rabeni: does it become then a discussion of ethics.?
Alfred Kelberry: but that's too broad
Aphrodite Macbain: good or evil?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, the use of metaphors (given bruce's notion)
Aphrodite Macbain: where did that come from?
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm I dont see tham having to do with moral judgement at all
Aphrodite Macbain: what is an evil metaphor?
Alfred Kelberry: heh, that's a good example of us now exerting varions metaphors to "good and evil" :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure what all he meant, but it does ask, whether we can see the pragmatic and important effects at work
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, useful or not useful
Calvino Rabeni: hmm, an evil metaphor ...
Calvino Rabeni: well about usefulness, the question is "for what"?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, useful is better
Aphrodite Macbain: begone bad metaphor!
Calvino Rabeni: and an overall assessment is hard, looking at all the pro's and con's
Calvino Rabeni: Take the metaphor "time is money"
Calvino Rabeni: is it good? bad? both? what effect does it have?
Aphrodite Macbain: morals can certainly be broaught into the discussion
Alfred Kelberry: pila, what do you think?
Pila Mulligan: not thinking at themoment, thatnks Alf :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Alfred Kelberry: heh
Aphrodite Macbain: Sometimes metaphors are neutral but explain something abstract more clearly
Alfred Kelberry: cal, heh, that could actually be neat if we took one metaphor and dissected it :)
Aphrodite Macbain: or maye a few differnt kinds of metaphors
Alfred Kelberry: can't go more precise than that :)
Calvino Rabeni: sure, it seems it would help the focus to go into specifics, Alfred
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps illustrative examples
Calvino Rabeni: Yes .. some examples to get a sense of the map, then go into one of them
Calvino Rabeni: (map being a metaphor)
Alfred Kelberry: given our multicultural presence, we could then go on and pick a few metaphors from other languages
Aphrodite Macbain: nice
Calvino Rabeni: for example, take the metaphor of a "topic"
Alfred Kelberry: topic?
Aphrodite Macbain: topic of cancer
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Alfred Kelberry: huh?
Aphrodite Macbain: kidding
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Alfred Kelberry: do not kid with cancer :)
Aphrodite Macbain: So, where are we?
Bertram Jacobus: midnight here. have to get up early tomorrow - so i´ll finish for today , too ... (here) - ty and bye ! *wave* ...
Calvino Rabeni: Where I'd feel comfortable being is to leave it to Bruce and maybe eliza, whether they want to continue with "what is WOK" or move on to "metaphors"
Aphrodite Macbain: Shall I ask Bruce to present his topic over the next two weekand distribute some reading?
Alfred Kelberry: ok, let's pick a metaphor like "time is money" but something less known, i think
Calvino Rabeni: I think it's Bruce's call?
Alfred Kelberry: will start with it
Alfred Kelberry: um...
Alfred Kelberry: we'll help him out :)
Aphrodite Macbain: OK It's also a saying. Metaphors are also thing s we take for granted as in "bigger is bet" or full means up or high
Calvino Rabeni: yes those are basic Aph
Calvino Rabeni: It's a fine suggestion
Aphrodite Macbain: Those videos really help
Alfred Kelberry: "bigger is bet"? i don't know this one
Aphrodite Macbain: best
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: things having buzz, topics being hot, questions being murky, etc.
Aphrodite Macbain: hell is murky
Calvino Rabeni: And there are the "ways of knowing" questions
Calvino Rabeni: applied to metaphors
Aphrodite Macbain: oh? like?
Calvino Rabeni: like how do you get into them
Alfred Kelberry: mell is hurky
Aphrodite Macbain: smell is turkey
Calvino Rabeni: well one way is to look for the schemas they embody, and use imagination to further them
Calvino Rabeni: another is to look at linguistics
Aphrodite Macbain: We have a WG meeting next week Boxy
Calvino Rabeni: these are different ways of knowing about metaphor
Aphrodite Macbain: OK I see Cal
Alfred Kelberry: cal, i think maybe it's about perception
Aphrodite Macbain: Now I need to go. Shall I talk to Bruce or will you? Probably you I think might be best
Calvino Rabeni: ok, I volunteer, to put this chat log onto the wiki so Bruce can see it
Alfred Kelberry: we learn ways we percive them
Alfred Kelberry: given we have a metaphor to start with (and hopefully a few others from other cultures) will be a good investigative context into the ways of knowing
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Key line for me: Calvino Rabeni: If the members don't take on the practice - contemplating the topic during the week - then the discussions will have less depth and focus
I felt the momentum and discussions stayed quite rich, but we have lots of discussion opportunities so the gift of WoK is the direct practice. I miss it. :)
It was nice too, to hear from Stim on the matter. edited 02:19, 7 Oct 2011