2010.08.26 - Dhyana Paramita/Samadhi II

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    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I apologize but I need to ask that someone else take the log tday
    Gaya Ethaniel: I can do it, no worries :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I am using emerald because I had issues signing on...
    Eliza Madrigal: and now have no idea what is where, though it *looks* like viewer 1
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you so much
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful dream session btw
    Gaya Ethaniel: It was lovely :) Shame you couldn't make it.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, but it was wonderful to read... felt like I was there
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: slow signing on today eh
    Eliza Madrigal: brb
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: k
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Dao :)
    Dao Yheng: Hi Gaya :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
    Eliza Madrigal: btw, calvino will be traveling til sept 1, but after that will come join us again, etc
    Gaya Ethaniel: I see, thanks for letting us know.
    Dao Yheng: Oh great -- he's set to do presentations too?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mitsu :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Mitsu Ishii: hi folks
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mitsu, Philosopher Zen
    Dao Yheng: Hi Zen!
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Dao Yheng: Eliza was mentioning that Calvino will be back and presenting one of his topics next week (hope I got that right)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes seems right :)
    Dao Yheng: I enjoyed the reports this week --
    Eliza Madrigal: wonderful reports.. was just catching up on Gaya's
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes thanks for the reports :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I'm always late ... :P
    Eliza Madrigal: :) no worries :)
    Dao Yheng: it was a great story -- worth the wait!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I like the story very much ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal: one of those stories one puzzles around in their mind... seems 'out of time' and yet there is a core
    Dao Yheng: How do you understand the story gaya? I'm sure there are many meanings, would be interested to hear what you were drawn to
    Eliza Madrigal nods and listens
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... patience and perseverance ... I remember Stim mentioning eons not 12 years ... and compassion, how important it is to cultivate this.
    Dao Yheng: back to the cave!
    Eliza Madrigal: eons=instantly
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I like the guy, a little feisty he must have been, to complain not to be bawled over when Maitreya appeared :P
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Dao Yheng: :))
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes can be seen as instantaneous as well ... one has to ask Stim directly.
    Dao Yheng: it's funny what we see "reality" in -- I remember at one of my first retreats, it was a hot pink button down shirt someone was wearing
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alfred!
    Dao Yheng: for this guy, it was worms and doggies :)
    Alfred Kelberry: oi :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Alfred
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Alfred :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: my goodness Dao... haha
    Gaya Ethaniel: wwwaaahhh so funny Dao!
    Eliza Madrigal: Say more about the pink shirt?
    Dao Yheng: it was just really really pink!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: everyone dresses in black at zen retreats
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm really struck by your saying this because I dreamed of 'magenta' the other night :)
    Dao Yheng: oh nice!
    Alfred Kelberry: zen, really?
    Eliza Madrigal: and I thought "What a funny thing to dream about... and so much lucidity, but it doesn't mean anything..."
    Zen Arado: black or dark anyway
    Eliza Madrigal: serious zennies :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: You can be a trail blazer then at the next retreat Zen, wearing a hot pink.
    Alfred Kelberry: i guess to exclude distraction of color?
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah Gaya
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: maybe - lots wear black robes too
    Dao Yheng: zennies are probably hot pink on the inside :)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Zen Arado: I don't like robes
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think different colours have different qualities/energies to them. I realised that when I tried a bit of visualisation on different colours.
    Zen Arado: we are ALL pink on inside
    Alfred Kelberry: never knew, interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: hahhahah
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: oh this session is doomed
    Eliza Madrigal giggling
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Mitsu Ishii: so I wonder if we want to talk more explicitly about the idea of samadhi
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I'd like to listen to that.
    Dao Yheng: yes, the color of a dream does carry some kind of message or quality, I think
    Zen Arado: somebody said something about cultivating compassion?
    Alfred Kelberry: samadhi?
    Eliza Madrigal: 'what color is samadhi?"
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: samadhi is the purported topic of today's session and last week's homework, Alfred :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: think it's more about removing the mental obstructions that prevent it as in the story
    Mitsu Ishii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi_(Buddhism)
    Eliza Madrigal: well aren't those both the same zen?
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, it's like meditation
    Zen Arado: samadhi is transparent and clear I think
    Mitsu Ishii: I think there's an interesting question here about different ways one can relate to meditation
    Eliza Madrigal: what is in the way... is in the way of natural compassion perhaps
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen
    Zen Arado: no - cultivating is more like forcing it because you think you should be compassionate I think
    Eliza Madrigal: cultivating can be not turning away from weeds
    Zen Arado: depends what you mean by cultivating though
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Mitsu more you'd like to say on different ways?
    Zen Arado: when I was a christian is was always trying to improve myself
    Mitsu Ishii: what I'd like to raise is the subject of samadhi itself, which is often seen as a state
    Mitsu Ishii: but in Buddhism of course samadhi is not seen as a goal, but more just a description of a type of awareness that can arise from meditation
    Eliza Madrigal: I was considering it as sustained awareness
    Eliza Madrigal: that one doesn't work up...
    Zen Arado: an absence of the usual mind chatter ?
    Eliza Madrigal: penetrating
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I wonder ... when/why is it important to understand what something like samadhi is?
    Zen Arado: agree Gaya
    Dao Yheng: samadhi seems to be a word that can be used for a few different things
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Aphrodite :)
    Zen Arado: we can spend too much time trying to achieve it
    Zen Arado: Hi Aphrodite
    Alfred Kelberry: would satori be the ultimate form of samadhi?
    Eliza Madrigal: I like to refer to the wiki and such, but for this kind of thing I prefer to stop and ask if I have a sense ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Will IM Aphrodite with intro :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aphrodite :)
    Mitsu Ishii: so it can become a problematic point to try to struggle with whether or not one has attained what level of samadhi
    Aphrodite Macbain: please don't let me interrupt
    Dao Yheng: For example, I would agree that "The central features of a major internal absorption include..." describes a state
    Mitsu Ishii: hi Aphrodite
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Dao
    Dao Yheng: (not at all A!)
    Eliza Madrigal: a guide to refer to can often give great comfort...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Dao
    Dao Yheng: it could be a very useful state at some point in your practice
    Zen Arado: please interrupt Aphro !
    Eliza Madrigal: a list, etc
    Mitsu Ishii: there's another approach which I find useful, though some people laugh at me when I describe it
    Dao Yheng: but not necessary at other points too
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) I'll have to do my homework first
    Eliza Madrigal: satori I think is more a temporary clarity...?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it could be useful but one cannot recognise in one's practice?
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i think it's a culmination
    Eliza Madrigal: my understand it as similar to 'noticing' that one's mind is quiet
    Gaya Ethaniel: Shouldn't it be something that has to be 'confirmed' through communication with a teacher or someone experienced?
    Zen Arado: we have to experience these things or we know nothing about them maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: like "Hm, didn't notice the chatter wasn't happening"
    Eliza Madrigal: Say more MItsu?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, except the Buddha obviously ... ^^;;;
    Zen Arado: even that confirmation could be suspect
    Mitsu Ishii: At one retreat I used the phrase "pixel of awareness"
    Mitsu Ishii: is that the phrase I used Dao? I think it was
    Dao Yheng: probably!
    Zen Arado: experiences can be deceptive too.....
    Eliza Madrigal: ? listening...
    Mitsu Ishii: well basically I think much if the time people attempt to attain some sort of total quietude or total absorbed awareness/samadhi
    Mitsu Ishii: but my approach is different. although I certainly experience that quite often, especially when practicing at retreat
    Zen Arado: but that's a goal
    Mitsu Ishii: I use an alternative approach
    Zen Arado: yes?
    Mitsu Ishii: The alternative is to have a kind of "double exposure" awareness
    Mitsu Ishii: another way I describe it is to maintain even a pixel of samadhi
    Mitsu Ishii: a pixel of awareness
    Mitsu Ishii: that is to say
    Mitsu Ishii: rather than focusing on trying to calm the mind or anything of that sort
    Zen Arado: why not 'just sit' and allow whatever happens to happen?
    Mitsu Ishii: instead I try to maintain, even in the midst of the most un-calm mind
    Mitsu Ishii: the very slightest bit of that clear awareness, somewhere, even if it is far in the background.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh... a taste....?
    Mitsu Ishii: or just off to the side
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well samadhi is a 'result' not a method or an instruction ...
    Mitsu Ishii: a tiny fragment of it, a hole or tear in the fabric of what appears to be my samsaric picture of the world and thoughts and so on
    Alfred Kelberry: mitsu, you talk about total quietude and absorption. it sounds a lot like being asleep :)
    Zen Arado: agree Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: So letting things to arise is fine ... of course.
    Zen Arado: aren't we so eager to achieve results though :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Using samadhi as a reminder? That sounds interesting :)
    Eliza Madrigal: very nice Mitsu, thanks for sharing that
    Zen Arado: take out spiritual temperature continually
    Zen Arado: yes thanks Mitsu
    Gaya Ethaniel: It actually makes sense ... turning to the silence.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's always there.
    Mitsu Ishii: I find this strategy or stance is a kind of intermediate between "try to attain samadhi!" and "well I'm not going to make any effort whatsoever in any direction at all"
    Eliza Madrigal: A friend told me a few years ago, about an 'experience'... Well, don't get distracted by it but it is okay to go back to the taste of it and let it expand...
    Mitsu Ishii: I do make a very, very slight effort, and that effort is to just try to keep the more expansive awareness there even out of the corner of my eye.
    Mitsu Ishii: I have found that level of effort is not particularly problematic.
    Zen Arado: so hard to put this into words....
    Eliza Madrigal: always there, yes @ Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well it's not something we can manufacture anyway.
    Mitsu Ishii: ultimately the point is to find that EVERY state of mind is already stopped, even while it is going. Stim likes to emphasize that point often.
    Zen Arado: I am so sceptical of experiences that I probably refuse to acknowledge them
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed... we can cultivate conditions in which it may be allowed/invited though
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well perhaps that's what Mitsu meant by that level of effort and turning/seeing by me ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or take out and put on a hot pink shirt as a last resort ...
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Dao Yheng: better than doggie worms :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: rofl
    Eliza Madrigal: sounds like ice cream or lip gloss... hot pink samadhi
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Dao Yheng: Zen, can you say more about your scepticism around experiences?
    Zen Arado: would be good to wear something like that to make sure we aren't hung up on clothing colour
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: You can start in SL Zen :P
    Eliza Madrigal: "be unpredictable"
    Gaya Ethaniel: And then in a RL Zen retreat ... :)
    Zen Arado: I often see flowers and such growing out of a radiator in front of me at retreats
    Zen Arado: but they are only 'makyo' I'm told
    Gaya Ethaniel: Makyo?
    Zen Arado: the mind manufactures these things when bored
    Zen Arado: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makyo
    Dao Yheng: like seeing faces and dragons in the knotted pine panelling?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: Zen teachers tend to dismiss visions as makyo, though Tibetans sometimes think there is a significance and can play with them.
    Zen Arado: yes that's it too
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... distortions ...
    Mitsu Ishii: We talked to a guy who studied Tibetan Buddhism and he described one encounter he had with a Tibetan
    Mitsu Ishii: he had been doing Zen and was having visions and the Zen teacher said he couldn't help with those but perhaps a Tibetan could
    Zen Arado: interesting...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: so he went to a Tibetan, and sat with the Tibetan lama, and they started to talk a bit
    Mitsu Ishii: the Tibetan lama at one point said "You may see things" and swept his robed arm across in the dark
    Mitsu Ishii: and in the space his arm swept, our friend saw all these colorful apparitions
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is he also an artist I wonder.
    Zen Arado: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Zen really has learnt to see things well.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Dao Yheng: indeed
    Zen Arado: it's worse at retreats because I am half asleep sometimes
    Zen Arado: have kind of waking dreams
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds like what an artist's mind would do naturally ... dreaming like visualisation.
    Dao Yheng: mm, I have had that experience too
    Eliza Madrigal: sallies
    Gaya Ethaniel: ack Mitsu poofed ...
    Dao Yheng: I think waking mind is makyo too, though
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))))
    Zen Arado: ah yes Dao
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's what the ordinary mind does isnt it?
    Zen Arado: it's all mind construction
    Gaya Ethaniel: yay wb Mitsu!
    Mitsu Ishii: sorry crashed
    Zen Arado: you have very detailed colourful dreams I remember Gaya
    Dao Yheng: I think that's why Pema's approach can be so freeing -- appearance as our friend instead of just a liar
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed.. so it is the nature of insight to notice one is not awake?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods Dao
    Gaya Ethaniel: I have good visual/spatial memory that's all.
    Eliza Madrigal gets shivers hearing gaya's dream descriptions at times
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: eh?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: little details... they feel tangible
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: So what happened to that man who went Tibetan Mitsu?
    Zen Arado: my dreams are low rez and monochrome I think :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Gaya Ethaniel: Watch more TV Zen :P
    Zen Arado: need HD dream mind installed
    Mitsu Ishii: oh, well, he ended up studying with him
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Mitsu Ishii: eventually he went to Nepal
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Mitsu Ishii: and got a geshe degree
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: dreams can be like the pixel too..
    Eliza Madrigal: noticing little things.. not trying to remember everything, just what winks...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: guess it isn't such a good idea to be doing that in the traffic though... find myself way less enlightened there
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just going back when is samadhi useful and when it isn't Dao? Can you say a bit more on that?
    Dao Yheng: oh, I meant specifically in regards to certain meditative states
    Gaya Ethaniel listens.
    Dao Yheng: like sitting up straight or slouching -- I've definitely had the feeling of "lucidity" you could say while slouching
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Dao Yheng: but actually, sitting up straight, getting my energy in line, that seems more dependable
    Gaya Ethaniel: You mean lucidity of 'ouch!'?
    Zen Arado: better to sit straight if you sit all day
    Dao Yheng: just full blown lucidity -- no ouch
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh
    Gaya Ethaniel: You must have really really slouched, no half-baked :P
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Zen Arado: I am going to a 5 day zen retreat next week
    Dao Yheng: oh great!
    Zen Arado: going to work on concentration
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hope you enjoy it Zen :)
    Dao Yheng: local, or travelling?
    Eliza Madrigal: nice, Zen
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've cancelled mine ...
    Zen Arado: about 60 miles away
    Eliza Madrigal: how do you feel about that Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: The teacher got a bit too demanding ... well feel relieved :P
    Zen Arado: http://www.servites-benburb.com/
    Dao Yheng: what an interesting name!
    Zen Arado: where was it Gaya?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Glad then Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Looks pretty :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's a small private one Zen.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: there'll be over 50 at this one
    Gaya Ethaniel: wow
    Mitsu Ishii: so we're leading up to the end of the session, shall we go on to the next paramita for next week?
    Eliza Madrigal: large group, wow
    Gaya Ethaniel: Wisdom isn't it?
    Zen Arado: prajna
    Mitsu Ishii: prajna paramita
    Gaya Ethaniel: I still sometimes say pranna ^^;;;
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pali way ...
    Mitsu Ishii: shall we make the heart sutra the homework?
    Gaya Ethaniel: The short one?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Chi paramita Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooh great idea Mitsu
    Zen Arado: I heard a talk on it 3 weeks ago
    Dao Yheng: sounds great!
    Zen Arado: we were learning to chant it too
    Zen Arado: in English
    Gaya Ethaniel: I chant it in Korean :)
    Zen Arado: I like it in Japanese
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: prajna paramita for next week's topic
    Mitsu Ishii: okay heart sutra prajnaparamita sutra for homework
    Eliza Madrigal: I like it in hot pink...
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Zen Arado: :)
    Dao Yheng: but everyone says gate gate -- I like that :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: you're wicked Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (sorry)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehhe
    Gaya Ethaniel: She's in that mood today more so than other days :P
    Dao Yheng: she cackles!
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahha yes it has been a week... kind of like Dao's I think...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you. See you next week [Zen see you the week after].
    Eliza Madrigal: according to report :)
    Dao Yheng: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: sorry to miss heart sutra
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone, and Gaya for posting the log. I'll figure things out...
    Zen Arado: pink heart too
    Dao Yheng: It's funny though, today the sun was out and I felt great!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mitsu Ishii: I like hot pink chanting too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Mitsu Ishii: well we might cover it two weeks in a row I suspect
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that's true Zen... maybe we'll come back..loop around
    Gaya Ethaniel: wwahhh
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes we can do that.
    Eliza Madrigal: Glad to hear that Dao :)
    Zen Arado: will try to write something anyway - don't go until Wednesday
    Eliza Madrigal: the clouds lift
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, great
    Dao Yheng: have a great retreat Zen -- tell us about it when you get back
    Mitsu Ishii: bye everyone
    Zen Arado: thanks to everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, enjoy it Zen :)
    Zen Arado: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye everyone, thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel waves.
    Dao Yheng: bye all, thanks!

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